Members shortchord Posted June 14, 2012 Members Share Posted June 14, 2012 Are E# and F not the same thing? They are enharmonic equivalents. They sound the same (in an equal temperament tuning system); their function is different. I'm not talking about the name of the chord, if that's where the confusion is stemming from. What I'm saying is to understand why that chord has such an otherworldly sound, you have to see in which context it's used. Right. In Man in the Mirror, it is pretty clear that it has a dominant function; it's being used as a V chord in the key of G. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 14, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2012 They are enharmonic equivalents. They sound the same (in an equal temperament tuning system); their function is different. Right. In Man in the Mirror, it is pretty clear that it has a dominant function; it's being used as a V chord in the key of G. The thing that always stuck me about the rasied 9th on the V7 chord... is it's a b7th of the upcoming I. It foreshadows the resolving I, even though the I might not use or favor a b7th. Just as pointed out earlier, a sus4 on a V has a similar appeal, that sus4 will be the 1 of the I chord and we all know and love that trick, I think that is a big part of the raised 9th on the V's appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Canvas Posted June 14, 2012 Members Share Posted June 14, 2012 Am I the only one who never writes in a major key (unless we're talking borrowed chords or key changes, and even then)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 14, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2012 I love major. Because that relative minor is always there to shade the emotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oswlek Posted June 14, 2012 Members Share Posted June 14, 2012 I love major. Because that relative minor is always there to shade the emotion. The relative minor to G is Em, what do you call Bm as it relates to G? That is another very common minor shade. Edit: I understand iii, I'm just wondering if there is a term for that chord connection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 14, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2012 The relative minor to G is Em, what do you call Bm as it relates to G? That is another very common minor shade. Edit: I understand iv, I'm just wondering if there is a term for that chord connection. I know you mean iii and not iv but want to clarify for lurkers, etc. The iii is called the Mediant chord. It's typical function is to act as a passing chord almost. It wants to resolve to the IV. Or... is a descending root motion from IV, iii, ii I, or to the vi... In other words, it's no relative minor. The relative minor is actually a resolution of sorts. Right? It's almost the same chord as the tonic I. but the iii is always just passing through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mark Blackburn Posted June 14, 2012 Members Share Posted June 14, 2012 Thanks to Canvas (in my hometown, Ottawa!) for all of this interesting "theory-applied" (a great thread keeps getting better!)Whoever asked, have some fun in G then throw in a F-F# trill, you'll see how weird it sounds. It's also nice to use instead of iii in major keys and v in minor keys, because it stacks the leading note of the harmonic minor (or its fifth mode, if in a major key) and the subtonic of a natural minor, so it'll give you that jazz-funk feel. Try playing Am then E7#9 or C then E7#9 and rejoice. Cool way to use a leading tone in a minor key without sounding like Bach, I feel, not that that's ever a bad thing. @Mark: He's adorable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Canvas Posted June 14, 2012 Members Share Posted June 14, 2012 We're talking about keys, right? Bm is D's relative minor, so moving from G to Bm is the same thing as moving from G to D, tonal center aside. It's pretty much a move to the dominant key, no? [Edit] Don't look at me like I know what I'm talking about, Mark, I can't even read sheet music! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 14, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2012 Don't look at me like I know what I'm talking about, Mark, I can't even read sheet music! Sure. But it doesn't have the same pull to the I as the V does. So, not really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Canvas Posted June 14, 2012 Members Share Posted June 14, 2012 So keys pull towards each other in the same way chords do? My uneducated guess would be that that tend to want to remain right where they are, so I'm listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 14, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2012 So keys pull towards each other in the same way chords do? My uneducated guess would be that that tend to want to remain right where they are, so I'm listening. I'm lost. I'm talking about a specific chord's function, regardless of key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shortchord Posted June 14, 2012 Members Share Posted June 14, 2012 Yeah, you guys are talking past each other. Lee is talking about moving from one chord to another, while Canvas is talking about moving from one key to another (which we refer to as "modulating" or a "modulation"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Canvas Posted June 14, 2012 Members Share Posted June 14, 2012 That's what I thought too... Lee, when you said there's always that relative minor to shade the emotion, were you talking about modulating for example from C major to A minor?[Edit] A dictionary would be helpful I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 14, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted June 14, 2012 A dictionary would be helpful I think. OK... got it. C to Am is not a modulation. Yes, technically you are changing from the key of C to the key a Am... but they are the same thing. Or at least teh same key sig what... boy I'mout of my element. I forget how to explain that. {censored}. Well... understand that C and Am are the same key signature. So they both share the same pool of notes, even though the tonal center shifts, from C to A. So really, same key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Canvas Posted June 14, 2012 Members Share Posted June 14, 2012 I get that, but what were you trying to say in that #104?To clarify, in #108 I was answering Oswlek: moving from the key of G to the key of Bm is more easily understood as modulating to the dominant key. Now, if he was talking about chords and there is such a thing as a "relative minor" in that domain, I should probably just be quiet and listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted June 14, 2012 Members Share Posted June 14, 2012 OK... got it. C to Am is not a modulation. Yes, technically you are changing from the key of C to the key a Am... but they are the same thing. Or at least teh same key sig what... boy I'mout of my element. I forget how to explain that. {censored}. Well... understand that C and Am are the same key signature. So they both share the same pool of notes, even though the tonal center shifts, from C to A. So really, same key. My experience with jazz musicians is that they might call out a key for a spontaneous groove on a well-known tune by saying, "'Stardust,' in two flats," and -- bam -- they're all playing in Bb. They might also work out on a well-known tune in a minor key by saying, "'Nature Boy,' in two flats," and -- bam -- they're all playing in Gm. Does that give you a picture of why C and Am are the same key? Same number of sharps and flats. LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oswlek Posted June 15, 2012 Members Share Posted June 15, 2012 I get that, but what were you trying to say in that #104?To clarify, in #108 I was answering Oswlek: moving from the key of G to the key of Bm is more easily understood as modulating to the dominant key. Now, if he was talking about chords and there is such a thing as a "relative minor" in that domain, I should probably just be quiet and listen. FWIW, I wasn't refering to the key of Bm, I was just asking how Bm relates to G since it is a very common combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted June 15, 2012 Members Share Posted June 15, 2012 moving from the key of G to the key of Bm is more easily understood as modulating to the dominant key. Now, if he was talking about chords and there is such a thing as a "relative minor" in that domain, I should probably just be quiet and listen. I don't think there's any such thing as a dominant key. Maybe I'm wrong. Moving from the key of G to Bm is essentially the same as moving from the key of G to the key of D, and D is the dominant chord in the key of G. Is that what you meant? LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oswlek Posted June 15, 2012 Members Share Posted June 15, 2012 No dominant keys, but there is a saddest of all keys. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDIipofjBQg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Canvas Posted June 15, 2012 Members Share Posted June 15, 2012 There is; you pretty much got it though.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_keyMaybe we should compile a core glossary to aid in this kind of discussion, if no such thing already exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted June 15, 2012 Members Share Posted June 15, 2012 There is; you pretty much got it though.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_key I'm learning... LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 15, 2012 Author Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2012 FWIW, I wasn't refering to the key of Bm, I was just asking how Bm relates to G since it is a very common combination. I got that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Canvas Posted June 15, 2012 Members Share Posted June 15, 2012 I didn't. And frankly I'm still kind of lost in this whole discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marshal Posted June 15, 2012 Members Share Posted June 15, 2012 Oh boy... Reading Wayne Dyer again? "Write sad song". Sure, if you have the vocabulary to do it. Three chords is plenty. And you can stay right there. But you don't have to. It's not like you're becoming less in touch with emotion or truth if you decide to go further with a study. God, I really hate that notion. Oops. I was only kidding. Shoulda put in some winkies ;) ;)(I rarely use just 3 chords myself. Admittedly I'm not a superstar on theory. But I know what a tonic is. [and I'm not talking quinine water]) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shortchord Posted June 15, 2012 Members Share Posted June 15, 2012 C and Am are not the same key. They are related (hence the term relative minor) and they share the same key signature, but the are not the same key. You can play Rounaround Sue as C Dm F G, and even though there is an Am chord in it, it is clearly in C Major. Conversely, House of the Rising Sun is clearly in Am, not C Major. I have to get to work, but I will to post more on this later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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