hypocracy of american politicians...why the middle east hates america.

[Miter Gauge]

IRAQ WAS ALL ABOUT MONEY .

There. Fixed it for ya.

[thenakedarab]

an interesting point was made to me the other day, this is a good place to share it: what makes us think that every country around the world actually WANTS democracy? considering that sharia law is actually preferred by most in the middle east tells us that we simply cannot understand what the people that live there want, and that we'd all be best served by keeping our noses out of it. all that said, i maintain that if the people want democracy, they should fight for it themselves. i also maintain that regardless of the system of government in place, there are always going to be people that are oppressed and not well served by that system.

 

 

First, you assume that patriarchal societies that promote Sharia law actually represent the opinions of the majorities within those countries, which they do not. What they represent is the militant views of extremists who will go to any lengths to keep their strangle hold on their ability to oppress the rights of those who disagree with them minimized or negated. In societies where women's rights are furthered, and they are allowed to participate in the democratic process you see more and more movement within the political and economic realms away from the patriarchal hierarchy and towards a more inclusive society that will eventually relegate Sharia law to the dustbin of history and deluded remembrances of extremists.

 

Second, if, when we declared independence from Britain, other countries felt "that if the people want democracy, they should fight for it themselves" and did not come to our aid, then we would still be a British Colonial society, or at least would have remained so for a vastly longer period of time. This would have resulted in a complete re-drawing of the map of the Americas in which even if we did eventually assert our right to self rule, we would likely be surrounded by European colonies, and would have a drastically less empowered footing on the world stage.

[rushtallica]

 

Maybe...maybe not. But it's EXTREMELY both funny and aggravating to hear ignorant people say "Iraq was all about oil". fred made the cute joke...but the facts of the matter show otherwise. I'm gonna quote a website: Now...I'm not an Iraqi Oil Export Expert...but the same website attempts to dispel some myths and outright lies: Here are the facts: * The U.S. gets less oil today from Iraq than before 9/11 * The largest source of crude oil for the United States is the United States * Iraq has never represented more than 4.5% of crude oil used in the United States * The United States' dependence on foreign oil has increased, but the amount of oil from the Persian Gulf has decreased I personally think The Middle East harbors a lot of hatred because of their own religious differences (amongst Islam), and the fact that living in sand is a hard life. And it's odd to me that "The U.S. is in The Middle East only for oil"...and yet...the Oil Emirs have so much oil money the plate their jumbo jets in pure gold. Something not quite right about this whole thing. Oh....not that anyone gives a damn about sources, other than to ridicule them....but here: http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/howmuchoilfromiraq.php

 

 

From my wife's brother's understanding (what he heard while spending years working security in Iraq, and he is as hardcore a rightwinger as anyone on this forum -- if not moreso), the US had chances to control all that oil but somehow screwed it up and lost a lot of control to China. I don't know much about it but only heard that. Maybe he's wrong, but I wouldn't be surprised if he was right. Anyway, it's my understanding that some oil companies had record profits after the war in Iraq commenced (not to mention the profiting various businesses, including Cheney's beloved Halliburton, experienced from the war).

 

Yes, I do believe it was mostly about oil, both in Iraq and with Iraq likely planned as a base to use for carrying out strategies to procure/control more oil and other natural resources in other nearby countries. I don't think you'll find many Americans who don't believe oil had at least something to do with the war.

 

Added edit: The rich oil people in some of the countries have the money but not the common person. Additionally, many of those people have major problems because various allied countries divided up the people and lands (Israel and others) haphazardly in the ME after certain wars.

[hahavishnu]

man that interviewer can talk ( the questions were as long,or longer, than the answers) and that white fella is way laid back.....good show

[Miter Gauge]

 

I am criticizing you not for expressing your views, but for illogical discussion. What does anything about Russia has to do with American hypocrisy? Your argument makes no sense in the context of this thread, yet you're using it to oppose my opinion. Like I said, I'm happy to discuss Russia whenever you want to.

 

 

I'd like you to think hard before you answer this question. If I started a thread condemning the British for fighting an illegal war in Iraq for oil would you not be tempted to mention American involvement even though the thread had nothing to do with America?

 

If honestly believe that you wouldn't consider bringing up America in the tread then I take back everything I said and apologize.

[Megadeth Man]

I've yet to be convinced otherwise that "helping" the indegenous populations was anywhere but at the bottom of the list of reasons (if that) for the Gulf, Iraq and Afghan wars.


For the record:

The Gulf invasion was by a UN backed coaliton of many countries.

The Iraq invasion was by a UK, US, Australian and Polish ( ) coalition.

The Afghan invasion was by a UK, US, Australian and Afghan coalition.


I wouldn't even attempt to read the collective mind of "the middle-east" to explain why they do or do not hate America...

I know, and have spoken to, a fair amount of UK & US servicemen, from the bottom to the top, who've done tours in all three wars. There is a significant difference in how the UK & US military handles "local relations"...


And FWIW: just from personal experience, anti-US sentiment seems to have, pretty much, disappeared in England since Bush left the throne -- you've smoothly transitioned back to the "our obnoxious little brother" status.

[Miter Gauge]

I've yet to be convinced otherwise that "helping" the indegenous populations was anywhere but at the bottom of the list of reasons (if that) for the Gulf, Iraq and Afghan wars. For the record: The Gulf invasion was by a UN backed coaliton of many countries. The Iraq invasion was by a UK, US, Australian and Polish ( ) coalition. The Afghan invasion was by a UK, US, Australian and Afghan coalition. I wouldn't even attempt to read the collective mind of "the middle-east" to explain why they do or do not hate America... I know, and have spoken to, a fair amount of UK & US servicemen, from the bottom to the top, who've done tours in all three wars. There is a significant difference in how the UK & US military handles "local relations"... And FWIW: just from personal experience, anti-US sentiment seems to have, pretty much, disappeared in England since Bush left the throne -- you've smoothly transitioned back to the "our obnoxious little brother" status.

 

I have no doubt that this is correct. I too have heard this from US military folks.

 

I also think that a lot of anti-american feelings are do to the US's inequitable dealings with the State of Israel (notice I didn't say Jews).

 

If the US were to be a little more non-partisan and hold that position for a few decades I think there'd be a lot less hatred directed westward.

 

Just my opinion. I doubt it's even worth 2 cents

[chrispsullivan]

People hate Americans because they're ignorant as all hell and don't realize that the average American has nothing to do with foreign policy ever. Go ahead and hate our politicians and the establishment who runs our country, but pinning this kind of {censored} on people who struggle just to get by is plain stupid. I hate the way my country conducts itself on an international scale just as much as any foreigner.

[scratchie]

America has been involved...heavily involved in the Middle-east since the 1950's.

America has been {censored}ing with their countries, overthowing governments starting wars and facilitating dictatorships overe there for more than 50 years....no {censored}ing wonder they hate us.

 

Now Washington is using its wars in the middle-east as an excuse to strip Americans of their Constitutional rights and most of you {censored}ers are just sitting the like frogs in a pot of water rising to the boil.

 

I am so sick of what I see happening back there....I am ashamed to be an American citizen.

[rushtallica]

 

People hate Americans because they're ignorant as all hell and don't realize that the average American has nothing to do with foreign policy ever. Go ahead and hate our politicians and the establishment who runs our country, but pinning this kind of {censored} on people who struggle just to get by is plain stupid. I hate the way my country conducts itself on an international scale just as much as any foreigner.

 

 

At the same time, Americans for the most part appear to be very ignorant regarding the exact things you mentioned regarding other countries. When I was a right-winger, all the other right wingers pretty much seemed to think of a country as a leader. For example, if Iran's president said something they didn't like, they'd respond predictably with, "Let's nuke that place, then!," as if ALL the Iranian people said whatever lame thing offended them. Many seem to have no clue those people are struggling much more than we are to get by (and I don't intend to belittle many Americans who do work hard and face a lot to keep things going for their families).

[rushtallica]

 

America has been involved...heavily involved in the Middle-east since the 1950's. America has been {censored}ing with their countries, overthowing governments starting wars and facilitating dictatorships overe there for more than 50 years....no {censored}ing wonder they hate us. Now Washington is using its wars in the middle-east as an excuse to strip Americans of their Constitutional rights and most of you {censored}ers are just sitting the like frogs in a pot of water rising to the boil. I am so sick of what I see happening back there....I am ashamed to be an American citizen.

 

 

I'm not ashamed at all to be American, but I am ashamed of some of the actions the country is responsible for, and I agree about the rights being stripped away. As long as a favorite party is in office, many don't care and think all the decisions are fine until the opposite party gets into office and supports the exact same BS.

[chrispsullivan]

 

At the same time, Americans for the most part appear to be very ignorant regarding the exact things you mentioned regarding other countries. When I was a right-winger, all the other right wingers pretty much seemed to think of a country as a leader. For example, if Iran's president said something they didn't like, they'd respond predictably with, "Let's nuke that place, then!," as if ALL the Iranian people said whatever lame thing offended them. Many seem to have no clue those people are struggling much more than we are to get by (and I don't intend to belittle many Americans who do work hard and face a lot to keep things going for their families).

 

 

I'll agree with that. It's stupid to judge an entire nation of people based upon what their political leaders do and say in general. The same can be said for any country.

[rushtallica]

 

I'll agree with that. It's stupid to judge an entire nation of people based upon what their political leaders do and say in general. The same can be said for any country.

 

 

+ 1. One of the great tragedies in life is that the politicians responsible for starting all the wars aren't the ones fighting the wars.

[scratchie]

Dude, both parties are taking our rights away.

[rushtallica]

 

Dude, both parties are taking our rights away.

 

 

Absolutely no disagreement from me. :phil:

[scratchie]

 

I'll agree with that. It's stupid to judge an entire nation of people based upon what their political leaders do and say in general. The same can be said for any country.

 

 

Really? Who the {censored} put them in power? The {censored}ing tooth fairy?

[chrispsullivan]

 

Really? Who the {censored} put them in power? The {censored}ing tooth fairy?

 

 

Do I need to break down for you how American "democracy" works in the real world? You do realize that the only people who ever become candidates on an actual ballot are the ones who are funded by the wealthiest and most powerful people in nation. We don't exactly get to choose as a general population who we actually want running our country. I was under the impression that this was common knowledge.

[Miter Gauge]

 

Really? Who the {censored} put them in power? The {censored}ing tooth fairy?

 

 

Shhh! dood the tooth fairy will {censored} you up for realz... that mofo knows kung jitsu.

 

You've been warned...

[::fred::]

 

I'd like you to think hard before you answer this question. If I started a thread condemning the British for fighting an illegal war in Iraq for oil would you not be tempted to mention American involvement even though the thread had nothing to do with America? If honestly believe that you wouldn't consider bringing up America in the tread then I take back everything I said and apologize.

 

 

I would answer like this. If a brit would've started the thread, and you as an american would say {censored} towards Britain, I would NOT point the finger at you yelling: Haha! Look who's talking. I would focus on the subject.

[TheRymanChu]

The Afghan invasion was by a UK, US, Australian and Afghan coalition.

 

 

Though this is true, there have been ground forces from 45 countries at various times in Afghanistan since 2001.

 

I'm not saying that Iraq was all about oil, but Paul Wolfowitz told G.W. Bush that oil would 100% pay for the Iraqi war, the people would greet us as liberators, and embrace democracy. Rumsfeld and Cheney agreed with this assessment. It was also convenient that this allowed the U.S. to nullify all Iraqi contracts and rewrite them to better benefit the U.S.

[TheRymanChu]

 

Really? Who the {censored} put them in power? The {censored}ing tooth fairy?

 

 

The Electoral College? One of the many things that makes this country a Republic and not a true democracy. I know you're right, the average Joe can swing 50 votes in the Electoral College.

[scratchie]

 

Do I need to break down for you how American "democracy" works in the real world? You do realize that the only people who ever become candidates on an actual ballot are the ones who are funded by the wealthiest and most powerful people in nation. We don't exactly get to choose as a general population who we actually want running our country. I was under the impression that this was common knowledge.

 

 

apathy, how the {censored} does that work...

[::fred::]

 

America has been involved...heavily involved in the Middle-east since the 1950's.

 

since 1948 to be exact.

[Ovid9]

 

apathy, how the {censored} does that work...

 

 

Its not exactly apathy. When the Supreme Court ruled that corporate and private interests can invest essentially unlimited amounts in elections it sort of put the nail in the coffin of bringing about anything resembling real election reform around here.

 

It'd been hard enough before that point because Congress likes the rules slanted in their favor come election time.

[Miter Gauge]

 

I would answer like this. If a brit would've started the thread, and you as an american would say {censored} towards Britain, I would NOT point the finger at you yelling: Haha! Look who's talking. I would focus on the subject.

 

 

So sounds like you are saying that country of origin of the original poster dictates your response? Is that what you are saying? If so, tell me how is that relevant to the subject? Especially in THIS case where the country of origin of the original poster isn't listed? For the record I KNOW this isn't what you are saying I'm just trying ot point out that it sounds like this is what you are saying. Help me understand.

 

I'm not trying to argue, I actually like the stuff you post. It is clear that you are a thinking man (except for when you got really pissed off one time and said some stuff that I'm sure you didn't really mean). I'm actually trying to understand what you mean and trying to do so respectfully.