Members ::fred:: Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 So sounds like you are saying that country of origin of the original poster dictates your response? Is that what you are saying? If so, tell me how is that relevant to the subject? Especially in THIS case where the country of origin of the original poster isn't listed? For the record I KNOW this isn't what you are saying I'm just trying ot point out that it sounds like this is what you are saying. Help me understand. I'm not trying to argue, I actually like the stuff you post. It is clear that you are a thinking man (except for when you got really pissed off one time and said some stuff that I'm sure you didn't really mean). I'm actually trying to understand what you mean and trying to do so respectfully. I'm getting into a thought loop here and losing the point. Ok, let's break it down to this. It always comes to this eventually: Guy A: American politics are hypocrites. Guy B (from Russia): Yes, they are hypocrites because such and such. Guy C: shut up, russian. You have no saying in this, because Russian politics are hypocrites as well. Guy B: wtf? I don't see how this is a discussion based on logic. I also think we are spending too much time on this. Let's move on with the topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 Added edit: The rich oil people in some of the countries have the money but not the common person. Additionally, many of those people have major problems because various allied countries divided up the people and lands (Israel and others) haphazardly in the ME after certain wars.PRECISELY my point! "rich" doesn't even begin to describe the social class differences. The Middle East oil people have unspeakable riches, unfathomable ...but...gosh it's our fault 'cause we went in there to "steal" all that oil. Come on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ::fred:: Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 btw, Miter. That post wasn't necessarily direct to you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ::fred:: Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 PRECISELY my point! "rich" doesn't even begin to describe the social class differences. The Middle East oil people have unspeakable riches, unfathomable ...but...gosh it's our fault 'cause we went in there to "steal" all that oil. Come on. Please, enlighten us on social differences in Libya prior to the war. But before you do so, I suggest you shock yourself with some research on what life was like there. It was one of the most prosperous countries in the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ~Abstract~ Posted April 8, 2012 Author Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 Guy A: America is getting involved in too many conflicts in the middle east. Guy B: Other people have America's back. So see, it's not JUST US. Guys C, D, E, and F: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 People hate Americans because they're ignorant as all hell and don't realize that the average American has nothing to do with foreign policy ever. Go ahead and hate our politicians and the establishment who runs our country, but pinning this kind of {censored} on people who struggle just to get by is plain stupid. I hate the way my country conducts itself on an international scale just as much as any foreigner.I would say people of every nation are ignorant. But, it's definitely more fashionable. especially for Americans...to hate Americans. You raise a good point....distinguishing between "the government" of a nation...and "The People". I think most human beings of every nation are a little busy just living their lives. I wonder how many Middle Eastern people actually do really hate America and Americans. I bet it's not all that much. Between people who have benefited by American Culture, and those just struggling to live...Just like I don't believe any major percentage of Americans actually hate Middle East and Islam. Not that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Miter Gauge Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 I'm getting into a thought loop here and losing the point. Ok, let's break it down to this. It always comes to this eventually: Guy A: American politics are hypocrites. Guy B (from Russia): Yes, they are hypocrites because such and such. Guy C: shut up, russian. You have no saying in this, because Russian politics are hypocrites as well. Guy B: wtf? I don't see how this is a discussion based on logic. I also think we are spending too much time on this. Let's move on with the topic. Fair enough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 Please, enlighten us on social differences in Libya prior to the war. Well technically....Libya is in North Africa....but that notwithstanding.....why not just say your point instead of playing games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ::fred:: Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 Well technically....Libya is in North Africa....but that notwithstanding.....why not just say your point instead of playing games? it was the wealthiest country in Africa. A newly married couple would get around $60k to buy an apartment/house from the government, GDP per capita was stronger than in some of the most developed countries in the world, if you wanted to open a business you would get $20k for a startup. All credit was interest free, etc. Look it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 it was the wealthiest country in Africa. A newly married couple would get around $60k to buy an apartment/house from the government, GDP per capita was stronger than in some of the most developed countries in the world, if you wanted to open a business you would get $20k for a startup. All credit was interest free, etc. Look it up. That's fine......bit I never said anything about Libya or North Africa. You're telling me they hit a {censored} hole, but not why. It was like we were talking about Iraq/Middle East...and I made a point...and you went "but look over there!>>>> that means you are wrong". And I'm like what the {censored}? Fine I'll look it up....bet I don't find a multitude of reasons? Or should I just blame Bush now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheRymanChu Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 I wonder how many Middle Eastern people actually do really hate America and Americans. I bet it's not all that much. Between people who have benefited by American Culture, and those just struggling to live... You might want to read pages 3-5 of this: http://aai.3cdn.net/5d2b8344e3b3b7ef19_xkm6ba4r9.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 You might want to read pages 3-5 of this: http://aai.3cdn.net/5d2b8344e3b3b7ef19_xkm6ba4r9.pdf Well...that is certainly very interesting. Not sure if it mirrors real world day-to-day Middle Eastern life....it's some sort of poll? I suppose here is where we get into a sourcing battle...who can find the most websites supporting a certain claim? I do admire their recent anti-Obama sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scratchie Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 Well...that is certainly very interesting. Not sure if it mirrors real world day-to-day Middle Eastern life....it's some sort of poll? I suppose here is where we get into a sourcing battle...who can find the most websites supporting a certain claim? I do admire their recent anti-Obama sentiment. That reply was so stupid I had to re-read it 4 times to make sure I wasn't reading it incorrectly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheRymanChu Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 I do admire their recent anti-Obama sentiment. As long as you enjoy some 9/11 style blowback, then rock on. As for myself, some say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ::fred:: Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 That's fine......bit I never said anything about Libya or North Africa. You're telling me they hit a {censored} hole, but not why. It was like we were talking about Iraq/Middle East...and I made a point...and you went "but look over there!>>>> that means you are wrong". And I'm like what the {censored}? Fine I'll look it up....bet I don't find a multitude of reasons? Or should I just blame Bush now? Sorry if I made it unclear. You were saying that the social differences in the Middle East were a cause for their problems. I gave you an example of a country where standard of living was the highest in the region (and considered very high across the whole world). Yet it suffered the same fate. Main reasons: control of natural resources and strategic advancement to Iran. Surely, there were lots of secondary reasons.. like the French Legion Etrangere intervention because of Sarcozy's debt to Gaddafi. But that's not a very "popular" view on things It's all called "bringing democracy to the savage arabs". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scratchie Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 Well...that is certainly very interesting. Thanks to my ulta-closed mindedness I do not have to consider any evidence that might challange my concept of the world.oh, and: I do admire their recent anti-Obama sentiment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 That reply was so stupid I had to re-read it 4 times to make sure I wasn't reading it incorrectly... Sorry you can;t keep up....let me go a little more slowly: 1) The link he posted was a media poll.....a questionnaire. Polls do not always reflect real life. You can effect the outcome of a poll by the kinds of questions you ask...and the WAY you ask them. Not to mention a language barrier. IS that too rough for you? 2) We *could* cite sources that prove our point...you can find any kind of information you want. I could cite a few websites that show many middle easterners do not hate Americans. I can show the schools and the influence of The U.S. that is actually embraced by Middle Easterners, especially the younger generation. A battle of sources and ridiculing. I chose to avoid that. Any problem there? 3) The link Ryman posted showed increased optimism right about Obama's election. But...in the two years that followed...optimism severely declined...according to this poll Ryman linked. Did you even read it? That's basically all I said. If you have something more specific for me to clarify..please ask. Otherwise....SU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 Sorry if I made it unclear. You were saying that the social differences in the Middle East were a cause for their problems. I gave you an example of a country where standard of living was the highest in the region (and considered very high across the whole world). Yet it suffered the same fate. Main reasons: control of natural resources and strategic advancement to Iran. Surely, there were lots of secondary reasons.. like the French Legion Etrangere intervention because of Sarcozy's debt to Gaddafi. But that's not a very "popular" view on things It's all called "bringing democracy to the savage arabs". Maybe I messed up saying "social classes". What I was trying to point out (and what I thought was obvious)was that Middle Eastern Emirs have UNBELIEVABLE "riches". Gold plated jets. While their Middle Eastern brethren struggle to grow food to eat. Now...you found a country that went in decline about the same time period....a ruthless crazy dictator no less...but it doesn't disprove my point. (Okay....I give up. You win. The whole thing is pointless.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scratchie Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 I can post websites that "prove" god exists, Aliens from outer space work at Walmart, that cawk size doen't matter...but it doesn't make any of it true. But there are sources that are reliable too. A Zogby poll isn't just a "questionare" it's a proper survey of opinion.There is amassive amount of evidence that points towards Americas involvenent in the Middle-east as the reason why we are hated there & most of the rest of the world. Dude, you are just blind to anything that confronts what you believe... in otherwords, an idiot.It is pointless to continue this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 Let me post absolutely nothing to show how {censored}ed up the other guy is. LO>...you really showed me! Keep up the great work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 I can post websites that "prove" god exists, Aliens from outer space work at Walmart, that cawk size doen't matter...but it doesn't make any of it true.Dude, you are just blind to anything that confronts what you believe...in otherwords, an idiot.It is pointless to continue this discussion. LOL...you just proved me point. I *Said* that you can find anything to prove your point...you argued with me about it...then just proved my point. lol...ha-ha. Then call me the idiot. I really did LOL and I usually just do that on the inside. AWESOME! EDIT: You did see where it was Ryman that posted the link that I responded to that you quoted, right? RYMAN's LINK...and it was ME that said you can find any source to prove your point. You saw that right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TheRymanChu Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 I could cite a few websites that show many middle easterners do not hate Americans. I can show the schools and the influence of The U.S. that is actually embraced by Middle Easterners, especially the younger generation. Many as in a handful or many as in the majority? If the latter, then I'm afraid you can't cite these websites, as they do not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 46&2 Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 Republicans are all liars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members scratchie Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 LOL...you just proved me point. I *Said* that you can find anything to prove your point...you argued with me about it...then just proved my point. lol...ha-ha. Then call me the idiot. I really did LOL and I usually just do that on the inside. AWESOME!EDIT: You did see where it was Ryman that posted the link that I responded to that you quoted, right? RYMAN's LINK...and it was ME that said you can find any source to prove your point. You saw that right? Well, you're right...I {censored}ed that post up. I ment to cut out part of the post & cut the wrong parts. It's still {censored}ed up , Went back & posted part of what I cut out.... See, this is the {censored} that happends when you try to be serious & troll at the same time on the internets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stevetemp Posted April 8, 2012 Members Share Posted April 8, 2012 Many as in a handful or many as in the majority? If the latter, then I'm afraid you can't cite these websites, as they do not exist. You know what...I'm going to man up, and say I haven't looked into the facts in the last couple years. IS that cool that I admit that? I bet that in the last two years, opinions have indeed gotten much worse. I'm sorry that I said that. I had asked my sister-in-law all about this- she is a National Guard M.D. that did two tours in Iraq....and at that time she said the media was being extremely biased on reporting. Again that was two years ago or so. Obviously things have deteriorated since then. However.....I did find this any agree that there is SOME measure of truth: Of course some good has come from the US being in iraq. You, however, will have a hard time finding any documentation of it due to the fact that the negative is what sells and drives the media of the world we live in. Does that mean everything is "hunky dory"? No of course not. I only mean that the negative side sells more...it's what we believe and what we want to hear. I'm gonna prove myself wrong...I'm going to sincerely re-educate myself. But even if I do...what can we DO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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