Should a sapele guitar cost as much as a hog guitar?

[kwakatak]

I would think that the prices of guitar models that were formerly made with mahogany would drop with the change to sapele, but somehow I don't think this is the case. Am I wrong? Should there be a price adjustment if a more plentiful resource is used?

[Harmonycat]

Well....it will be much cheaper than Honduran Mahogany just as soon as Honduran is banned due to the endangered listings. Sapele is nice, but Honduran on the other hand will become very expensive and sought after.

 

"Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got till it's gone"

[knockwood]

Never occurred to me before, but interesting point. The difference between a Sapele b/s set and a Honduran Hog b/s set on LMI is about $16. Not a big difference by itself, but could translate to a pretty big margin difference... only it doesn't.

 

Just a guess: Dropping the price of a git that switches from hog to Sapele might cause some alarm, foster the notion that the model is suddenly inferior to its former incarnation. Keeping the price the same seems to raise fewer questions... I don't think it ever occurred to me to ask why not cheaper for Sapele until your thread popped up.

 

I don't mean to make it sound so sinister. Ultimately I think maybe it's just crafty marketing.

[guitarist21]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've played a few Taylors with Sapele (or Ovangkol) back and sides and they don't sound all that different from hog and rosewood, respectively. If that's the case, why aren't more makers using them?

 

Ellen

[DonK]

I've noted that Martin, at least according to their website, seems to use these interchangebly on their 15 series guitars, i.e., the website description says, "sapele or mahogany" back and sides. I assume that means a given 15 series guitar could be made from either one without it being specified.

 

I've owned two 15 series, a 00-15 and an OM-15, and whatever they were made of, the wood seemed identical.

 

I've had two Taylor ovangkol guitars (both 414's), and while ovangkol is tonally close to rosewood (my current 414 is a limited, and thus it's rosewood), it's fairly easy to distinguish it cosmetically.

 

Because mahogany and rosewood have such long traditions as woods of choice, I think a lot of buyers go for them in part for cosmetic reasons. Since sapele is an easy cosmetic sell as a substitute for mahogany, I would think a lot of makers would use it (as Taylor and Martin do). OTOH, ovangkol isn't a perfect cosmetic substitue for rosewood.

 

Here are a couple of Ayers guitars I've had my eyes on; one is ovangkol and the other rosewood. The ovangkol is lighter in color (same as with my Taylors):

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/AYERS-AUDITORIUM-ASO-MODEL-100-HANDMADE_W0QQitemZ250105760265

 

http://cgi.ebay.com/AYERS-HANDMADE-DREADNOUGHT-DSR-MODEL_W0QQitemZ250106487616

[Hudman]

I never expect retail prices to go down. I would expect the price to remain the same on the sapele and the price to go up on all guitars made with solid mahogany in the near future.

 

You can ask Taylor a similiar question. Why didn't the price go down on their 200 series when they switched from solid sapele to laminate rosewood?

[kwakatak]

 

I never expect retail prices to go down. I would expect the price to remain the same on the sapele and the price to go up on all guitars made with solid mahogany in the near future. You can ask Taylor a similiar question. Why didn't the price go down on their 200 series when they switched from solid sapele to laminate rosewood?

 

 

That one has also left me scratching my head, Hud. Like I said in another thread, I thought the new 214s were nice, just not $800 nice. Given that there are other makes out there putting out all-solid wood guitars for less you'd think they'd adjust their pricing to compete? Heck, even the Breedlove Atlases look more attractive to me than the "entry level" Taylors.

[Cripes]

Mahogany is a fine tone wood but it is, afterall, mahogany. The name is well-known and steeped in the wood-working tradition so its popularity has become a house-hold word. Sapele is not, but if tonal characteristics are on a level with mahogany why should it be considered in a lesser light? That's my logic, anyway. Knock's assessment of the overall quality image would be my driving force to keep prices stable from a marketing standpoint. Plus, like Hud points out I have never seen prices prices, beyond Wall Street, drop.

[guit30]

The solid Sapele 214s blow away the new Laminate 214s, they are not even made as well.

Jim

[polynices]

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but I've played a few Taylors with Sapele (or Ovangkol) back and sides and they don't sound all that different from hog and rosewood, respectively. If that's the case, why aren't more makers using them? Ellen

 

 

i like the look of honduran hog.

[kwakatak]

 

The solid Sapele 214s blow away the new Laminate 214s, they are not even made as well. Jim

 

 

 

I actually thought the opposite but I totally respect that your opinion may differ from mine. I've now played two of the old solid sapele 214s and they both left me feeling underwhelmed. There was not as much bass or sustain to my ears as with the new 214. Either that, or someone keeps returning the same dud guitar to my local Taylor dealer.

 

OTOH, the laminated EIR 214 I played was "minty fresh" so it had that going for it. I thought the finish was much better too. Like I said before - they're much heavier though, like Washburn heavy.

[bjorn-fjord]

Well....it will be much cheaper than Honduran Mahogany just as soon as Honduran is banned due to the endangered listings. Sapele is nice, but Honduran on the other hand will become very expensive and sought after. "Don't it always seem to go, that you don't know what you've got till it's gone"

 

Honduras Mahogany has already been added to the CITES list of species that can't be transported accross international borders. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what that means. All I know is that I can no longer buy Honduras from LMI or anyone in the US because I live in Canada. I think there is a lot of Honduras mahogany already in the US that is being held by wholesalers. As soon as that is used up, Honduras mahogany will be the new Brazilian Rosewood in terms of availabilty. I'm buying up the local supply as fast as I can.

[Harmonycat]

Honduras Mahogany has already been added to the CITES list of species that can't be transported accross international borders. To be honest, I'm not entirely sure what that means. All I know is that I can no longer buy Honduras from LMI or anyone in the US because I live in Canada. I think there is a lot of Honduras mahogany already in the US that is being held by wholesalers. As soon as that is used up, Honduras mahogany will be the new Brazilian Rosewood in terms of availabilty. I'm buying up the local supply as fast as I can.

 

 

There it is guys.....buy your Honduras mahogany solid guitars now.....By the time you retire it will be the "new Brazilian Rosewood".

 

You will read al those posts in twenty years, that Mahogany species wood has never been the same since you can't by new guitars made of real Honduran Mahogany. Those other species Mahogany guitars just don't hold a candle to the Hondurans.

The vaunted pre 2010 Honduran Mahogany guitars will be the Prewar Martin of the day...... ........maybe!!!!

[bjorn-fjord]

There it is guys.....buy your Honduras mahogany solid guitars now.....By the time you retire it will be the "new Brazilian Rosewood". You will read al those posts in twenty years, that Mahogany species wood has never been the same since you can't by new guitars made of real Honduran Mahogany. Those other species Mahogany guitars just don't hold a candle to the Hondurans. The vaunted pre 2010 Honduran Mahogany guitars will be the Prewar Martin of the day...... ........maybe!!!!

 

Well...I get the feeling that you're implying that the love of Honduras mahogany is akin to the belief that Brazilian is the best tonewood. This is not a fair comparison because the love of Brazilian rosewood is based on its visual qualities and perceived sound that it imparts in an instrument. Both of these criteria are completely subjective. Whereas Honduras mahogany was chosen over all other types of mahogany for very practical reasons. It is the stiffest and most stable of all the mahoganies. This has particular implications for guitar necks. The other mahoganies are not as well suited to instrument construction.

[knockwood]

 

Well...I get the feeling that you're implying that the love of Honduras mahogany is akin to the belief that Brazilian is the best tonewood. This is not a fair comparison because the love of Brazilian rosewood is based on its visual qualities and perceived sound that it imparts in an instrument. Both of these criteria are completely subjective. Whereas Honduras mahogany was chosen over all other types of mahogany for very practical reasons. It is the stiffest and most stable of all the mahoganies. This has particular implications for guitar necks. The other mahoganies are not as well suited to instrument construction.

 

 

Since you've mentioned necks, I'm curious to know your opinion - and others' - on suitable neck material replacements once Honduran hog and Spanish cedar (looks like it's headed down the same road as Honduran hog) are either no longer available or prohibitively expensive.

[bjorn-fjord]

 

Since you've mentioned necks, I'm curious to know your opinion - and others' - on suitable neck material replacements once Honduran hog and Spanish cedar (looks like it's headed down the same road as Honduran hog) are either no longer available or prohibitively expensive.

 

 

It's a bit of a quandry. I guess other mahoganies (ie. southeast asian) will probably be used for a while until they have been depleted.

I think what will eventually happen is that we will begin to use hardwoods that have been considered inappropriate for neck use on acoustic guitars such as maple. It seems like an obvious choice and has been used on archtop acoustics for many years. It's a little heavier than mahogany and not nearly as stable but with graphite reinforcement it should work just fine. It grows like a weed is in plentiful supply all over the northern hemisphere. It'll look a little weird though.

There are plenty of woods that are suitable with proper reinforcement but we'll have to get used to letting go of the traditional look of acoustic guitars.

[Harmonycat]

 

Well...I get the feeling that you're implying that the love of Honduras mahogany is akin to the belief that Brazilian is the best tonewood. This is not a fair comparison because the love of Brazilian rosewood is based on its visual qualities and perceived sound that it imparts in an instrument. Both of these criteria are completely subjective. Whereas Honduras mahogany was chosen over all other types of mahogany for very practical reasons. It is the stiffest and most stable of all the mahoganies. This has particular implications for guitar necks. The other mahoganies are not as well suited to instrument construction.

 

 

 

Thank you for your input, and education on the matter.

 

I am sure that you know that all my talk about Honduran Mahogany is purely facetious, and done for laughs only. Sure would be funny if that is what happened many years from now.

 

I understand you are a Luthier. Aren't you the fellow who wrote about guitars that may not survive many years due to somewhat flimsy bracing? It was very informative.

 

Out of curiousity, what is your opinion of the Yairi all solid wood guitars like the DY-94, or Dy-95, with the Direct Coupled Bridge?

 

Thanks

Glenn

[bjorn-fjord]

Thank you for your input, and education on the matter. I am sure that you know that all my talk about Honduran Mahogany is purely facetious, and done for laughs only. Sure would be funny if that is what happened many years from now. I understand you are a Luthier. Aren't you the fellow who wrote about guitars that may not survive many years due to somewhat flimsy bracing? It was very informative. Out of curiousity, what is your opinion of the Yairi all solid wood guitars like the DY-94, or Dy-95, with the Direct Coupled Bridge? Thanks Glenn

 

No, I think you're right. I bet it will happen that purists will pay huge dollars for guitars with Honduras necks in the future. I bet Martin is salting away large quantities of it for custom orders in the future just like they did with Brazilian.

 

I don't know much about the Yairi bridge. I just read a little about it and my initial reaction is that it's an interesting idea. Sort of like an archtop bridge but with the tailpiece inlaid into the soundboard. It could reduce the forward rotational forces on the bridge but it won't eliminate them. The bridge is being pushed down and the spot where the strings are attached is being pulled forward. I guess maybe it spreads out the forces somewhat. Time will tell.

 

Edit: The Yairi guitars look to be very soundly constructed. They do not fit into the category of what I would call "lightly braced guitars".

[kwakatak]

 

It's a bit of a quandry. I guess other mahoganies (ie. southeast asian) will probably be used for a while until they have been depleted. I think what will eventually happen is that we will begin to use hardwoods that have been considered inappropriate for neck use on acoustic guitars such as maple. It seems like an obvious choice and has been used on archtop acoustics for many years. It's a little heavier than mahogany and not nearly as stable but with graphite reinforcement it should work just fine. It grows like a weed is in plentiful supply all over the northern hemisphere. It'll look a little weird though. There are plenty of woods that are suitable with proper reinforcement but we'll have to get used to letting go of the traditional look of acoustic guitars.

 

 

Do you think that they would be similar to electric necks - like the one found on a Fender Strat, for example? If not Fender, then I could see Taylor guitar moving in this direction.

[bjorn-fjord]

 

Do you think that they would be similar to electric necks - like the one found on a Fender Strat, for example? If not Fender, then I could see Taylor guitar moving in this direction.

 

 

I dunno. They could do that with mahogany and they haven't. I would guess that they'll make the necks the same way and dye or stain them to look as much like mahogany as possible. But who knows?

[kwakatak]

I dunno. They could do that with mahogany and they haven't. I would guess that they'll make the necks the same way and dye or stain them to look as much like mahogany as possible. But who knows?

 

I hope not. Stained mahogany is a pet-peeve of mine. Whenever I see a hog Martin 15 series I think they look cheap and gimmicky. That's part of the reason why I love my Larrivee OM-03R. Sure, there was a big difference in contrast between the neck and the back/sides but over time the hog seems to have darkened a little all on its own.

 

BTW - don't the vast majority of maple-bodied guitars already come with maple necks?

[bjorn-fjord]

I hope not. Stained mahogany is a pet-peeve of mine. Whenever I see a hog Martin 15 series I think they look cheap and gimmicky. That's part of the reason why I love my Larrivee OM-03R. Sure, there was a big difference in contrast between the neck and the back/sides but over time the hog seems to have darkened a little all on its own. BTW - don't the vast majority of maple-bodied guitars already come with maple necks?

 

Yeah, I guess you're right. Maple guitars usually do have maple necks. I haven't paid much attention to maple guitars because I don't really like maple as a tone-wood. I made a small bodied maple guitar in my last batch and it's so bright it could shatter glass. Not really my cup of tea.

 

So let me ammend my opinion.

I think when mahohany is gone, it's likely that manufacturer's will start using maple. It's not exactly a new idea. Bowed instruments have always had maple necks.

But I still think a clear finished maple neck on anything but a maple bodied guitar will look weird. Why not stain it? Think of the nice patina on varnished violin neck. Gorgeous. That could look fantastic on a guitar. Geez, I think I'm onto something here. Unfortunately maple is a bitch to work with. It's absolute hell on tools. Way worse than any of the tropical hardwoods.

[bjorn-fjord]

I just got back from the local music store and I saw some lower end Godin products with the exact neck I described. Stained maple. It looked OK but they had 3 piece necks and the joints really showed badly.