Members vinster333 Posted February 11, 2009 Members Share Posted February 11, 2009 i'm planning to purchase either a Martin DX1R (rosewood, back-sides) or DX1K (koa, back-sides) . they both have HPL sides and back so i don't even know if the difference in wood matters. but i was wondering if there are any reasons one would be better over the other? i plan to just strum chords for recording britpop type songs like "the verve" any opinions are appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members moctzal Posted February 11, 2009 Members Share Posted February 11, 2009 HPL back and sides means the same for both. HPL is basically glue and sawdust type stuff pressed into guitar back/side thickness. The different "woods" for each is just a photo-finish veneer over this HPL. There's no reason the two should sound any different from each other at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wooglins Posted February 11, 2009 Members Share Posted February 11, 2009 On HPL it is a matter of taste. I like the way KOA looks, what do you like? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tony Burns Posted February 11, 2009 Members Share Posted February 11, 2009 Their both counter top laminates - neither is wood -whats the difference . their decent sounding for the money - buy one of each ( sorry about the negatism ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vinster333 Posted February 11, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 11, 2009 thanks for the replies i like the way the rosewood looks so i'm going for that one. i really like the DX1R and DX1K. for the money...they sound great. of course i would love to have a $2500 acoustic but i want to eat for the rest of the year. thanks again ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dgimcmillan Posted February 11, 2009 Members Share Posted February 11, 2009 with the comments about HPL just being sawdust. Everything I've read on guitars with laminate sides says that it's usually 3 very thin layers of actual wood bonded together. So, a rosewood laminate would be: outside layer 1 - rosewood core layer - poplar inside layer - rosewood or mahogany It's still all wood. Now, Martin doesn't say that on their website, so it could be they're really "cheaping" out and doing something less than what I've seen. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DonK Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 with the comments about HPL just being sawdust. Everything I've read on guitars with laminate sides says that it's usually 3 very thin layers of actual wood bonded together. So, a rosewood laminate would be: outside layer 1 - rosewood core layer - poplar inside layer - rosewood or mahogany It's still all wood. Now, Martin doesn't say that on their website, so it could be they're really "cheaping" out and doing something less than what I've seen. Ian HPL isn't your normal laminate, which is why it's designated HPL ("high-performance laminate"). Guitars that have typical laminated backs and sides (i.e., of the construction you reference above) are typically described as though the wood was solid, except that the word "solid" is omitted from the description (often the word "select" is substituted). HPL isn't really a laminate in the traditional sense of the term: it's a composite, essentially consisting of...sawdust and glue. A thin layer of paper forms the top, which is a photo of actual wood-grain (or a computer-simulated drawing). HPL most assuredly isn't "all wood". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Samilyn Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 HPL back and sides means the same for both. HPL is basically glue and sawdust type stuff pressed into guitar back/side thickness. The different "woods" for each is just a photo-finish veneer over this HPL. There's no reason the two should sound any different from each other at all. +1 They won't sound any different, so just get whichever one you think looks best. And FWIW, my D12X1 has HPL back and sides. The git sounds great and I'm finding that the HPL is pretty tough stuff - it's taken some pretty hard knocks, but shows no scratches or dings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Melodeous Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 HPL - High Pressure Laminate. The screwy word here is "laminate". Typical kitchen counter-top type laminate, which is the HPL we see used in martins, is a layer of plastic bonded to an engineered wood product (compressed chip-board) and together under heat and pressure "laminated" together. They are inseparable when the process is complete. Whatever "look" is desired is nothing more than a photo-finish. martin uses the plastic alone without bonding it to any wood product. It's about as cheap as it gets but it makes for quick, easily produced guitars and they can always pat themselves on the back for "going green". If you ever go to a home store like Home Depot ask for where the counter-top laminate sheets are. Look on the back (raw side) and you will see exactly what a martin HPL guitar looks like inside. "Laminated" wood is a sheet of wood comprised of several thinner sheets of real wood laid atop each other with the grain running perpendicular to each succeeding layer. The individual sheets receive a thin layer of glue and then they are sandwiched together and squeezed under high pressure forming a sheet of plywood that is much, much stronger than a similar dimension sheet of solid wood. It is plywood. Laminated wood guitars are plywood guitars. Plywood is not as glamorous a name, that's all. The martin HPL guitars aren't even plywood. It costs more, actually, than the laminate they use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Guitarplay Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 don't let all this negative info get you down, i know a few people who have hpl laminate martins and they all sound good compared to other acoustics in the price range. if i didnt luck out and get a deal on my tak ean10c, i would probably have a martin hpl myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Melodeous Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Will the real bubinga please stand up? http://www.tapeease.com/images/Veneer%20Pics/bubinga%20qtd%20-1.jpg Tap Ease sells plastic photo-finished plastic laminate veneer. Looks great, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rjoxyz Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 My wife and I toured the Martin plant in Nazareth last summer. They have an entirely seperate and very different section of the factory dedicated to producing the X Series. Long strips of HPL hang from racks, waiting to be shaped into one-piece guitar sides. Sounded like they could crank them out in very high volume in comparison to their traditional guitars which surprisingly, took several weeks from start to shipping. I played one in the lobby of the plant. I thought it sounded pretty decent, considering its construction. I actually think the laminated neck is kinda cool. They make some gunstocks like that and they are extremely stable and durable under adverse conditions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 HPL isn't your normal laminate, which is why it's designated HPL ("high-performance laminate"). Guitars that have typical laminated backs and sides (i.e., of the construction you reference above) are typically described as though the wood was solid, except that the word "solid" is omitted from the description (often the word "select" is substituted). HPL isn't really a laminate in the traditional sense of the term: it's a composite, essentially consisting of...sawdust and glue. A thin layer of paper forms the top, which is a photo of actual wood-grain (or a computer-simulated drawing). HPL most assuredly isn't "all wood". Yikes! "A thin layer of paper forms the top, which is a photo of actual wood-grain"! No thanks. Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kwakatak Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Your decision is based upon looks alone and it's been made so the point is moot. However, if it were "real" koa vs. "real" rosewood (of which neither wood is represented in the X series) I would say rosewood. Not just on looks, either. Koa may be more "exotic" looking but to my ear it sounds thinner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Melodeous Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Your decision is based upon looks alone and it's been made so the point is moot. However, if it were "real" koa vs. "real" rosewood (of which neither wood is represented in the X series) I would say rosewood. Not just on looks, either. Koa may be more "exotic" looking but to my ear it sounds thinner. yep. I had an all-Koa OM and not for long. I, too, bought it for looks and thought I liked what I heard in that noisy little guitar store. On the other hand, I had a Taylor 310 Legends of the Fall spruce over Koa B/S and it was much different sounding than the OM I had with it. I would have kept that Taylor if I could have gotten used to the 1-11/16 nut. That and the fact that I was leaving the dread size guitars pushed me to sell it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Opa John Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 I like Bluegrass.......ergo.......I like Rosewood.......real rosewood, whether it's laminated or solid. I'm thinking, since Martin makes HPL guitars, they've got to be good. But, I just can't get past the "particle board" connotation. I'm completely convinced that the best guitar for the money is going to have a solid top and laminated Rosewood back and sides. Makes for a good guitar at not a lot of money! Like maybe a Yamaha FG730S......sounds like a winner to me and I don't even own one............yet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vinster333 Posted February 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Yikes! "A thin layer of paper forms the top, which is a photo of actual wood-grain"! No thanks. Bill the DX1R has a solid sitka spruce top. it's the back and sides that are HPL. i played one a couple of weeks ago and really liked it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members riffmeister Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 I like Cocobolo sides/back. Sounds like crap but oh does it ever roll off the tongue nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dgimcmillan Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 now I'm sure I have no reason to want a Martin, since I can't afford something like a D-28 or higher. If all you're doing is buying "crap" with the Martin name on it, why buy it? Why not buy something made out of quality, but without that special "name". I guarantee you'll find something with just as good a sound for the same price and with better materials. I'm becoming a firm believer in Godins and Seagulls and others like that. I don't believe they're made out of particleboard. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 I agree - try a few low-to-mid priced all solid wood guitars before settling on a guitar that has "manufacturing cost efficiency to maximise shareholder returns" built into the design process... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Guitar_stringer Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 I agree - try a few low-to-mid priced all solid wood guitars before settling on a guitar that has "manufacturing cost efficiency to maximise shareholder returns" built into the design process... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Palmer Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Here's some accurate information covering HPL manufacture. It should help dispel a number of myths. http://www.formica.co.uk/publish/site/eu/uk/en/home/site_tools/faqs/hpl_manufacture.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Cool! I can stick a bridge and some tuners on my kitchen counter and play slide while I'm waiting for my grilled cheese... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary Palmer Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Cool! I can stick a bridge and some tuners on my kitchen counter and play slide while I'm waiting for my grilled cheese... pmsl Only if you're willing to continuously clean your strings and mop up semi molten cheese spills. ------- In essence, HPL/formica is resin loaded and compressed paper with common useage as protective work/flooring surfaces, signage boards, etc. and not the work/countertop combination many appear to associate with medium/high density chipboard/fibreboard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Broadus Posted February 12, 2009 Members Share Posted February 12, 2009 Gary, thanks for the link. I cannot get past the decorative paper wood-grain effect of the back and sides. I would love to own a Martin, and one day perhaps will find an OM-21 coming my way. Till then I'll be content with "lesser" names that are real wood, whether all solid or three-part laminates like the Godins. Best,Bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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