Baby Taylor finish at the backing starting to peel off

[poderoso]

Hey guys,

 

Not sure if I should've posted this on the DIY forums but I figured the acoustic guys would know more. First of all, I got a Baby Taylor from eBay last week and I bought it knowing for a fact that the finish at the back is starting to peel. The previous owner just put a sticker on it so it wouldn't spread.

 

But I wanna fix it B-)

 

On the taylor website, it says that the back is finished with varnish. How do do this? Do I just paint over it? Is there a specific type of varnish?

 

Any DIY links would be appreciated.

 

I'm not really going for pretty I just wanna protect the wood. Here's what it looks like now.

 

 

 

And I think air bubbles are starting to form on certain parts of the back.

 

Thanks!

[FretFiend.]

AFAIK, Taylor uses UV catalyzed poly finish on all their guitars.

Where on the Taylor website does it say that the back is finished with varnish?

 

You could spend a bunch of money and let Taylor fix it, and it would look very good.

Or you could spend a little less money and let a local tech/luthier patch it, and it would probably look pretty good.

Or you could spend even less money and brush or spray some polyurethane varnish on it yourself, and it would probably look like crap, but it would protect the wood.

[Samilyn]

Well, if you're not going for pretty, I'd peel off as much of the loose stuff as possible, then very lightly rough the area with some ultra-fine sandpaper or steel wool, then apply a couple of very-thin coats of polyurethane. (A couple/few thin coats is always better than one thick coat) Once the new urethane has dried sufficiently, I'd lightly sand the back to reduce the line of demarcation, then buff it well.

 

Yeah, the repair would show, but if you take your time and expend some elbow grease, it shouldn't look totally horrible.

[poderoso]

 

AFAIK, Taylor uses UV catalyzed poly finish on all their guitars. Where on the Taylor website does it say that the back is finished with varnish? You could spend a bunch of money and let Taylor fix it, and it would look very good. Or you could spend a little less money and let a local tech/luthier patch it, and it would probably look pretty good. Or you could spend even less money and brush or spray some polyurethane varnish on it yourself, and it would probably look like crap, but it would protect the wood.

 

 

Its actually on the spec sheet on the taylor website. It says the back sides and top are varnished. Is it going to be a problem if i spray poly over it if it really is varnish?

[poderoso]

 

Well, if you're not going for pretty, I'd peel off as much of the loose stuff as possible, then very lightly rough the area with some ultra-fine sandpaper or steel wool, then apply a couple of very-thin coats of polyurethane. (A couple/few thin coats is always better than one thick coat) Once the new urethane has dried sufficiently, I'd lightly sand the back to reduce the line of demarcation, then buff it well. Yeah, the repair would show, but if you take your time and expend some elbow grease, it shouldn't look totally horrible.

 

 

Thanks for the advice! And what grit sand paPer would you recommend for this job? And would any polyurethane finish do? Are there different kinds? Sorry im such a noob at this. I dont know anything about finishing guitars but i'll be really patient.

[gitnoob]

That looks like a manufacturing defect to me. Call Taylor -- maybe they'll be embarrassed enough to offer you a new one. Tell them you promise not to show pictures of it on internet fora.

 

Terms like "varnish" and "lacquer" are fairly meaningless. They both basically mean "sticky stuff carried by some solvent."

 

Difficult repair, but I wouldn't use sand paper, and I wouldn't buff it. See how much you can gently flake off with just some scrubbing.

 

This is what was recommended by Taylor in a similar thread: Perfect Blend

[Samilyn]

Thanks for the advice! And what grit sand paPer would you recommend for this job? And would any polyurethane finish do? Are there different kinds? Sorry im such a noob at this. I dont know anything about finishing guitars but i'll be really patient.

 

No apologies necessary, m'dear, and we're all noobs at something. I don't do git repair per se, but I've done quite a few wood and furniture refinishing projects. A lot of this stuff isn't rocket science, but failures do result if you rush things and don't do good prep work. So yes, be really, really patient.

 

If it were my git, I'd probably use nothing heavier than 1000 grit for "roughing", then go on up to 2000 grit for the finish work. Take your time and work slowly for best results. Be sure to get some tack cloth, too, and use it to get every bit of dust out of the sanded area before applying urethane.

 

As for the polyurethane, I'm a great fan of the Minwax brand water-based ones, though other opinions may differ. Soap-and-water cleanup is definitely a plus for me. I'm no chemist, but somehow I don't think a water-based finish would adversely react with the catalyzed finish. I have noticed, however, that many water-based finishes are more clear, have less of a mildly golden hue, than oil-based ones. (Well, we're after protection, not perfection, right? LOL)

 

Lastly, if you don't have a spray-up system at your disposal, use the finest-bristle brush you can afford. Fine, dense, tapered bristles give you a smoother application. Don't forget, couple or three very thin coats is way better than one thick coat. Be sure to lightly sand and use tack cloth between coats for best adhesion.

 

Best of luck.

 

Edit to add: I see Gitnoob offers different advice than what I give here. He's done much git work than me, so do pay attention to him, then choose your course of action. As I said earlier, I'm applying furniture repair principals here, not necessarily git repair ones.

[Grant Harding]

I would totally get it professionally finished and I agree that Taylor may be interested in swapping you, because that does look like an embarrasing manufacturing defect.

 

I definitely wouldn't just "have a go" with some sort of finish.

[FretFiend.]

 

Its actually on the spec sheet on the taylor website. It says the back sides and top are varnished. Is it going to be a problem if i spray poly over it if it really is varnish?

 

 

Hmmm. Taylor used to be more specific about their finishes. Terms like "lacquer" and "varnish" are indeed important. If it is actually varnish, it will be soluble in thinner. Take some of those flakes and see if thinner will dissolve them. (Goes without saying to keep the thinner away from the guitar) If the finish is varnish, all you have to do is sand the area a bit, brush or spray some varnish on, maybe sand and repeat, buff a bit, and you're done.

 

Note. I really recommend you consult a local luthier/tech type first.

[Freeman Keller]

 

Thanks for the advice! And what grit sand paPer would you recommend for this job? And would any polyurethane finish do? Are there different kinds? Sorry im such a noob at this. I dont know anything about finishing guitars but i'll be really patient.

 

 

OK, let me reinforce what everyone has told you.

 

First - that is a factory defect and would be covered under warranty to the original owner. If you can contact him/her it will still be registered and they can get the work done.

 

Second - there is a chance that they will do the work for you at no charge, doesn't hurt to ask. Also doesn't hurt to ask what they will charge if its not covered.

 

Next - All domestic Taylors are finished in UV catalyzed poly finish - it is a very hard finish that does not soften with most normal solvents. The average person doesn't have the equipment to spray or catalyse it. I don't know about the Mexican Taylors, my assumption is that they are also poly but I really have no experience with them and frankly I can't navigate their web site to find out.

 

"Varnish" is a very generic term (if you really found it specified I would like to see a link). Violins were at one time finished in a mixture of linseed oil, alcohol and probably some other stuff - it was called "violin varnish" and is probably similar to French polish. I can't believe that Taylor is going thru all the work to FP the Baby's, but if they are the fix is pretty simple (google French polish and follow instructions). Also google "spirit varnish" - that is the normal repair for old violins.

 

If it is a varnish it will disolve in lacquer thinner (not ordinary paint thinner) or acetone. Put a tiny drop on some of the finish and see if it softens - if so any of the usual methods of drop filling will work (I would use nitro). If it does not soften it is poly.

 

Fourth - let me just warn you that any attempt to fix this will probably make it worse, particularly if you have to ask what girt sandpaper to use - that tells me you really shouldn't consider this. However, lets assume that it is catalyzed poly, here is how Frank Ford (one of the best repair people in the industry) fixed a Taylor - note that he first applied a little shellac (FP), then shot some nitro over it.

 

http://www.frets.com/FretsPages/Luthier/Technique/Guitar/Structural/Cracks/Taylor355Cracks/355cracks.html

 

Frankly, if Taylor won't fix it for you I'd just either ignore it or put a sticker over it.

[gitnoob]

Next - All domestic Taylors are finished in UV catalyzed poly finish - it is a very hard finish that does not soften with most normal solvents. The average person doesn't have the equipment to spray or catalyse it. I don't know about the Mexican Taylors, my assumption is that they are also poly but I really have no experience with them and frankly I can't navigate their web site to find out.

 

http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/features/finish

 

I think Collings charges an extra $1000 or so for varnish. No extra charge on Baby Taylors -- such a deal.

 

The reason to minimize sanding and skip buffing is due to the satin finish, of course. It'll give it an ugly low-gloss sheen.

[Freeman Keller]

 

http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/features/finish The reason to minimize sanding and skip buffing is due to the satin finish, of course. It'll give it an ugly low-gloss sheen.

 

 

No pore fill cuts another step or two and some cost. OK, for the OP, forget everything I said, sand back to 220 then 320, got to Home Depot and get some sort of varnish, smear it on. Once you think its thick enough, sand to 400, 600, 800, then go back over it with 0000 steel wool to take the gloss out and give it the ugly low-gloss sheen.

 

fwiw - back when I had my 314 one of the things I really didn't like about it was the ugly low-gloss sheen so I did the Mequires trick of semi glossing it. Better, but still not what I strive for when I do a finish. Oh, well.

[Samilyn]

The OP did say he's not going for "pretty", he just wants to protect the wood. That can be done in a number of ways.

 

Some peeps like low-gloss finishes. I'm one of 'em.

[Freeman Keller]

 

The OP did say he's not going for "pretty", he just wants to protect the wood. That can be done in a number of ways. Some peeps like low-gloss finishes. I'm one of 'em.

 

 

When I was first worried that it was Taylor's usual poly finish my concern was that anything he put on it wouldn't bond and would eventually peel off. The nice thing about touching up lacquer is that new coats can be made to melt into the old, but poly is completely different. Since it has been confirmed that it really is some sort of varnish my assumption is that if he properly cleans and sands the old finish a new coat will adhere and he'll be fine. If any oil or silicon products have been used on the guitar all bets are off.

 

He'll end up with a glossy or semi glossy finish, which needs to be level sanded so it is reasonably smooth - that is the idea of sucessive grits of sand paper. By the time he gets up to 800 it should be relatively smooth and will have minor sanding scratches. The steel wool will take everything back to satin.

[Samilyn]

When I was first worried that it was Taylor's usual poly finish my concern was that anything he put on it wouldn't bond and would eventually peel off. The nice thing about touching up lacquer is that new coats can be made to melt into the old, but poly is completely different. Since it has been confirmed that it really is some sort of varnish my assumption is that if he properly cleans and sands the old finish a new coat will adhere and he'll be fine. If any oil or silicon products have been used on the guitar all bets are off. He'll end up with a glossy or semi glossy finish, which needs to be level sanded so it is reasonably smooth - that is the idea of sucessive grits of sand paper. By the time he gets up to 800 it should be relatively smooth and will have minor sanding scratches. The steel wool will take everything back to satin.

 

So true, dat.