Haggling at Guitar Center

[iop]

Nitefly 182,
Yes I have been there many times. Mostly deal with Bill Brooks. Great guy and guitar player.

Compared to the mega Sam Ash and Guitar Center stores we have here, W.M. looks like the inside of an old mom and pop store from the fifties.

The new chain stores have giant ceilings, white painted walls, as opposed to the million cool pictures of past and present band photos, wall papering at W.M. Center.

Sorry no offense was meant, by my description. I love the place hence this post to talk about them.

[Ronzo]

Originally posted by iop Hi, sorry to break into you're conversation. New here...ah, I found Washington Music to be the lowest prices anywhere. WHY? No 800 number No catalog I email them my best price and half the time I didn't have a best price I just quoted what I wanted to pay within reason, and got it. I don't think they check, if your price is close but under. I bought a brand new 87i full package for under $1,995.00. I have purchased practically everything from them for the past 25 years. They are a hole in the wall store in Wheaten Md. Thanks for letting me get that off my chest. http://www.washingtonmusic.com/

Similar situation applies to Space Music in North Miami, FL. Great bunch of people, and they NEVER waste my time. I try not to waste too much of theirs as well.

Call (305) 981-8945, and ask for Shiva. He'll hook you up. Tell him Ron sent you over.

[jfreaksho]

GC rarely, if ever, has anything that I want. I don't bother to go there. I have a route of about 4-5 guitar shops I go to, and adding GC would about 20min of driving one-way.

I really like supporting local businesses. Someone made some comment about the big chains being better for communities, and that's a load of crap. Why do you think so many people are trying to keep Walmart out of their towns? They do pay some taxes, but the majority of the money goes up the chain to the owners, who probably don't live locally for you. If I buy something at a little local store, where the owner lives nearby, then the guy making the most money from my business has a vested interest in helping my community. He lives there.
I buy a $1000 guitar. Say $600 of it was cost. $250 goes to the expenses of the store. $50 goes to the guy working in the store, and $100 goes to the guy who owns the place.
If this is a local store, that $100 stays in my town. He eats at the local restaraunts, he buys gas from the local gas stations. He listens to the local college radio station, maybe even donates. He goes to the local bars and listens to the local bands while tipping the local bartender.
If this is a chain store, that $100 goes to some guy in some far away state who has more money than he really knows what to do with. He's paying other people to handle his money for him. He's investing that money, I'm sure, but the way taxes are structured, he probably pays very little because he has a LLC or something set up to shelter his income from taxes.
I'd rather have the money stay in my town.
J.

[Diggsy]

What would really be a great idea is to have some kind of"Thumbs Up Service"base of Mom & Pop stores across the nation being posted somewhere here,places where they treat a musician of any ability with some basic respect.......Little or none of the"Don't touch this,Don't touch that"stuff,competitive pricing,and repair personnel who know what the hell they're doing with a drill or a sautering iron.List the name of the shop,City or town of location,and notable"golden goose"employees if any.Remove the babies from the stinky bathwater so to speak.Say something that truly SAYS that GC doesn't have to be the only game in town.

[xStonr]

I am a big supporter of buying locally, suportingthe smaller business owner. As I work for a smaller "mom and pop store". We go out of our way to do whatever is humanly possibly to help out our customers...after the sale!!.But in my case with the cable being under warranty and the store not wanting to do anything about it (not handling it the way I do at the place I work), I took my business to someone who wanted to take care of me. Which in this case was Guitar Center.

[Europa760]

how does helping a handful of people at a guitar mom and pop store help the community more then all the business a guitar center brings into the community? and the tax burden big companies take on, just for the privilege of being in that town?

doesn't make much sense to me. i sure as hell don't shop with the notion of helping out the business. i shop with the notion that im spending the money i earned and trying to get the best deal possible.

people owning a business can go ahead and spend the money they earned as well. I dont walk around expecting money just because im part of someones community. i dont owe them anything just because of their location.

[Europa760]

but that aside, in terms of haggling at GC, i name my price, and i always get what i want.

usually just take 25% off of what the tag says.

on hard to find stuff, i dont say anything, i just pay what the store marked it as. seems stupid for me to ask for a lower price if theyre the only ones who have it. but on big name guitars, i name my price.

[booher]

Originally posted by Europa760 doesn't make much sense to me. i sure as hell don't shop with the notion of helping out the business. i shop with the notion that im spending the money i earned and trying to get the best deal possible.

 

 

Goddamn right.

 

Roger Karlos, you're full of {censored} yourself. It's your money. Do you want to spend more to make other people feel good? If you do then you're probably not spending your money for the right reasons. If you work for your money, then you want to see it go into things in a fiscally responsible way. You want the best outcome. If you have extra money hanging around, then, damnit, you've done a damned good job and can feel good about it and spend it in other places you need it.

 

Hell, if I spend a few extra bucks at a Mom & Pop shop, all I've done is helped them realize that they can stiff people more than GC, which doesn't make me feel to great about where my money is going.

[Mistersuperfly]

There were some ugly colored HWY1's back in the day and I remember them being on closeout for less than 400...

I got my HSS HWY1 for 500 w/ American Standard Case.

[Sparkytfl]

I managed to haggle without even trying to today. I had the guy hand me the box for a preamp, and the one behind it still had a sign on it from a sale that ended months ago, and I asked if that was the price and they let me pay the expired sale price. 25 percent off.

I've asked for a used classical case and they sold me a new one for sixty instead of a hundred since they had none used.

[vegas_jay]

Originally posted by Europa760 and the tax burden big companies take on, just for the privilege of being in that town?

 

 

Actually, large corporations generally negotiate signifigant tax breaks with the county/municipality before they build their new store. For example, Wal-Mart alone has recieved more than 1 billion dollars in property tax concessions in areas where it built new stores.

[guitarstar81]

Originally posted by vegas_jay Actually, large corporations generally negotiate signifigant tax breaks with the county/municipality before they build their new store. For example, Wal-Mart alone has recieved more than 1 billion dollars in property tax concessions in areas where it built new stores.

 

 

Guitar Center has nowhere near the kind of economic pull that Walmart has though, that's rediculous. I doubt they get any kind of meaningful tax breaks.

 

And to some of the guys in here saying they get 55-60% off of list all the time, I don't buy it. On some things, maybe. A few guitars and accesories have margins like that. Most of the time though, the margins are much lower.

 

To the guy that started this thread... just figure out how much you want to pay for that guitar, what it is worth to you. Would you could pay for it and still be happy you got a good deal. Don't go in there with the mindset of grinding them down to a rediculous figure. Be reasonable. Remember that, while yes, it is a corporation, the guy selling the guitar is a local too, trying to make a living. If you plan on coming back to buy anything else, find 1 guy you like in there, and do all of your business through him. Works wonders.

[Europa760]

Originally posted by vegas_jay Actually, large corporations generally negotiate signifigant tax breaks with the county/municipality before they build their new store. For example, Wal-Mart alone has recieved more than 1 billion dollars in property tax concessions in areas where it built new stores.

 

 

no doubt, but where does that still leave them?

 

 

Originally posted by guitarstar81 And to some of the guys in here saying they get 55-60% off of list all the time, I don't buy it. On some things, maybe. A few guitars and accesories have margins like that. Most of the time though, the margins are much lower.

 

 

do you know what list price is? the sticker is almost always around 1/2-2/3's the list price.

 

its the one where stores say theyre having mega blowout deals on the list price, but in reality, theres no sale.

 

after you take off a little from what it says on the tag, i wouldnt dont 50 percent off list consistently.

[guitarstar81]

Originally posted by Europa760 no doubt, but where does that still leave them? do you know what list price is? the sticker is almost always around 1/2-2/3's the list price. its the one where stores say theyre having mega blowout deals on the list price, but in reality, theres no sale. after you take off a little from what it says on the tag, i wouldnt dont 50 percent off list consistently.

 

 

yes, I know what list is. I work at a GC. Like I said before, on some items, it is possible to get above 50% off list. Mostly cheaper stuff. With more expensive stuff, ESPECIALLY Fender, Guitar Center doesn't even get half off of list. How could you expect to?

[Europa760]

Originally posted by guitarstar81 yes, I know what list is. I work at a GC. Like I said before, on some items, it is possible to get above 50% off list. Mostly cheaper stuff. With more expensive stuff, ESPECIALLY Fender, Guitar Center doesn't even get half off of list. How could you expect to?

 

 

thats true, i just ran my numbers and i usually get around 45%(fender standard Tele, Epi Dot) off list.

 

ive never even looked at list prices before, until this thread.

 

50 is pushing it to the "be serious" category. cuz i know im pushing it at 45.

['56Goldtop]

Originally posted by rangerkarlos If you want that smaller store to be there in the future, patronize them.

 

 

If the Mom & Pop want their customers to be there in the future, should they be competitive with their pricing?

[Flyboy]

I had a salesman at GC tell me they had a much bigger margin on the cheap stuff. Epi, Squier etc. He said they have little room on Gibson and Fender. What he meant by "little room" I don't know. I've never bought any of my "high end" stuff from GC.

[jerry_picker]

Originally posted by Flyboy I had a salesman at GC tell me...

I've had salesmen at GC tell me the most incredible bullsh*t I've ever heard.

[NITEFLY182]

Originally posted by guitarstar81 yes, I know what list is. I work at a GC. Like I said before, on some items, it is possible to get above 50% off list. Mostly cheaper stuff. With more expensive stuff, ESPECIALLY Fender, Guitar Center doesn't even get half off of list. How could you expect to?

 

 

Right on, I work in a music shop and margins on a lot of things are fairly slim when you consider the cost, freight, the labor for the hour it takes me to sell the product, and then what I make from the particular sale. There are alot of factors that minimize profits for companies. Tell them about the SM58 discount structure guitarstar. Cost to a business is $96. How much do SM58s sell for, 99.95.

[rangerkarlos]

Big box stores get tax breaks, create dying main streets, and pay stupidly low wages.

I'd rather have thriving town to live, raise kids, work, and shop in that a giant commercial park on the outskirts of a cluster of townhouses.

If that means supporting the local guy- that's my choice.

Maybe I'm full of {censored}, as was stated above, but preserving a thriving local economy is important to me.

This "Nothing matters but me" attitude is bad.

Really bad.

It's big picture stuff

[Ronzo II]

Originally posted by guitarstar81 yes, I know what list is. I work at a GC. Like I said before, on some items, it is possible to get above 50% off list. Mostly cheaper stuff. With more expensive stuff, ESPECIALLY Fender, Guitar Center doesn't even get half off of list. How could you expect to?

 

 

Well, one way you could do that is to buy something that's been on the shelf for awhile.

 

Large operations like a GC generally work on "inventory turns". The Gross Margin (GM) percentage isn't the only thing that determines net profitability. If a piece has been in inventory for a long time, it is less likely to be moved with each passing day. The dollar cost tied up in that inventory costs that firm money every day, because the time value of money is determined based upon the cash flow and financing charges needed to maintain that inventory. The faster you turn a product, the better your actual operating margin is. And the reason the term "margin" is used instead of "profit" is because your current sales support your future inventory purchases -- just like buying stocks on margin.

 

FWIW, that's how Mars failed. They couldn't turn their inventory fast enough to support the amount of dollars tied up in the inventory they carried. Ultimately, the vendors (Fender, Gibson, Washburn, and the rest) said, "You can't use your inventory of our products as collateral for future purchases -- you're not moving the goods quickly enough, and we see it from your purchase patterns." Essentially, "Margin Call" -- just like at the end of the movie "Trading Places". Result? Bankruptcy. And vendors that got pennies on the dollar when Mars liquidated learned a valuable lesson.

 

That forced GC and Sam Ash, and a lot of others, to monitor their inventory more closely. Each guitar has a serial number, and it would surprise me A LOT if each guitar wasn't individually tracked in their systems. If so, they know exactly how long that guitar/amp/pedal has been there. And they know what lines move, and what lines don't move.

 

If you know the serial number schema for what you want to buy at places like that, you have a powerful tool at your disposal. I bought my Tele from Sam Ash on that basis, letting them know that this was made in 2002 for a 2004 sale, and pointing out some shopworn aspects of it -- never mind that it was an incredible player, even with the minor cosmetic issues. Walked out the door with the 2002 NOS in sunburst for $275, including a complete setup and two new tuners. I did OK. Bought one of the new POS Fender molded cases on eBay for $50, and I was good to go. I had gig bags I could use in the meantime.

 

Learning the inventory cycles helps, too.

 

Bottom Line: the more you know about how a business operates, the better you can negotiate a deal that helps them as much as it helps you. Those win-win deals make everyone involved happier.

[Shocker]

Originally posted by rangerkarlos Big box stores get tax breaks, create dying main streets, and pay stupidly low wages. I'd rather have thriving town to live, raise kids, work, and shop in that a giant commercial park on the outskirts of a cluster of townhouses. If that means supporting the local guy- that's my choice. Maybe I'm full of {censored}, as was stated above, but preserving a thriving local economy is important to me. This "Nothing matters but me" attitude is bad. Really bad. It's big picture stuff

 

Not looking for a big argument here, but the local shop, the one closest to me, sells Johnson guitars and G&L Tribute guitars. Their used G&L USA Legacy, which is well-worn, costs $1300.

 

They open at 2, and close at 7. No matter what the wages, which can't be far above minimum wage, you'd be better off working at guitar center where you have the chance of making commission on selling a decent instrument.

 

GC slings a lot of bull{censored}, and I don't really like them, but a great local shop is a rare gem. I think we should make lists of those shops that go six or seven steps above and beyond what a guitar center will do, guys who who actually care about customers (like not taking advantage of new players, or not trying to screw people on guitar prices or misinforming them, or ignoring them, or one of the other 700 shortfalls of most small shops).

 

//S

[Polaris20]

Originally posted by '56Goldtop If the Mom & Pop want their customers to be there in the future, should they be competitive with their pricing?

Yeah, because a mom&pop store that moves $400,000 a year in inventory if they're lucky gets the same pricing from Fender or Ibanez as GC with millions in sales a year, right?

It's not that simple. There are things like overhead. rent. utilities. wages.

Do you think it's cheaper per unit to buy 1,000 RG120's or Squire Affinity packs, or buy 6?

I think (at least in my experience) mom and pop stores do their best for pricing, knowing full well who they're up against. But sometimes there's only so much they can do for you and still be able to keep the doors open. It's a delicate balance.

There's also this thing called customer service and customer experience that most mom and pop stores provide, and it's something GC will never be able to create, even with their "vibe", as they call it.

The American public is too caught up on the Wal-Mart mentality of commerce.

"{censored} the experience and the service, I WANT THE BEST PRICE DAMMIT!"

"I don't give a {censored} if there's a different new guy in the store each time I go in that doesn't know an RCA plug from 1/4", I WANT THE BEST PRICE DAMMIT!"

In years to come everything will be owned by 4 different companies, because people wanted the best price, and forget that there's more to it than that.

[jerry_picker]

Big box vendors are nothing new.
In the mid-70's, it was MF's predecessor, Music Emporium USA.
They were selling brand names at 25-40% off suggested retail. I remember them way undercutting prices on my local dealers: when I'd bring in the catalog, the locals would shake their heads and complain that their "wholesale" wasn't much different than MEUSA's retail.
The internet has given the big box boys a real boost.

The financials on GTRC (Guitar Center, Inc.) make interesting reading: http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=GTRC&d=t

[Paul Buerk]

The internet has given the big box boys a real boost.

 

 

Absolutely. But it's also opened up opportunities for smaller players to work niches and expand their territories at the same time. Local independent stores are competing at a disadvantage, as they have to charge tax while the on-line dealers don't. Sure, the buyer is supposed to pay a "Use Tax" equal to the local sales tax (in many if not all states) for purchases made out of state, but practically never happens. And yes, the GC annual report is very interesting reading.

 

 

There's also this thing called customer service and customer experience that most mom and pop stores provide, and it's something GC will never be able to create, even with their "vibe", as they call it.

 

 

Problem is that there is no universal guarantee that all independent stores actually provide customer service and (positive) customer experience. As I said, plenty of people have been screwed by Mom and Pop's.