Haggling at Guitar Center

[Polaris20]

Originally posted by Paul Buerk Problem is that there is no universal guarantee that all independent stores actually provide customer service and (positive) customer experience. As I said, plenty of people have been screwed by Mom and Pop's.

Well, sadly you're right. It's a shame too, because you'd like to think the little guy struggling would want to take every opportunity to make themselves shine with service and knowledge.

But there are always the bad seeds.

As far as the tax thing goes; that's winding down. It's in Congress right now that tax free crap is coming to an end.

Yeah it sucks, but it's only right to the people that are in your town trying to compete with online places with no tax.

I guess I am personally more sympathetic to it, because I worked in a retail camera shop for 10 years, and had to deal with assholes that would spend an hour of my time explaining a piece to them, then have them say:

"well, it's great, it does everything I want it to. Let me think about it"

And then come in the following week with questions on the new camera he just bought online with free shipping and no tax.

[Ronzo II]

Originally posted by Polaris20 Well, sadly you're right. It's a shame too, because you'd like to think the little guy struggling would want to take every opportunity to make themselves shine with service and knowledge. But there are always the bad seeds. As far as the tax thing goes; that's winding down. It's in Congress right now that tax free crap is coming to an end. Yeah it sucks, but it's only right to the people that are in your town trying to compete with online places with no tax. I guess I am personally more sympathetic to it, because I worked in a retail camera shop for 10 years, and had to deal with assholes that would spend an hour of my time explaining a piece to them, then have them say: "well, it's great, it does everything I want it to. Let me think about it" And then come in the following week with questions on the new camera he just bought online with free shipping and no tax.

I did wedding photography in the NYC metro area for over 20 years. I bought my Bronica SQ-A systems and my strobes from Armato's, even though it was cheaper elsewhere, because of the level of support that Mike and Paul Armato provide.

I question how a camera store can compete with B&H, et. al., for commodity, non-professional items, though. There's no need for hand-holding support. The buyer merely needs to RTFM. All most need to do is hold the camera in their hands -- and they can do that at Best Buy or Staples, with the sample camera on a tether.

Unless a local store offers TRUE added value, I will seek out online buys for commodities, and, in some cases, even bigger ticket items. That applies for guitar gear, too. But I've found local stores that DO offer significant added value AND are able to compete price-wise too.

I am philosophically opposed to sales taxes. They overburden the segment of the population that can least afford to pay them. The problem is, most municipalities like them because they are easier to enact than a graduated income tax, both politically and logistically.

I will also consider strongly NOT casting my vote for any representative in Congress who caves in on the online/across state lines tax exemption. So-called "use taxes" are ludicrous. If I bought something in a venue where there's no sales tax, and then carried it back to my home town, I have to pay an equivalent to the sales tax for USING the item there?!?

Funny how the so-called "entrepreneurs" want the game's rules changed so they can compete in the way THEY understand, instead of getting the understanding they need to compete in the game as it is, or will be. Somebody's "moving your cheese" all the time. You can read THAT book at a stoplight. The concept is that simple. Adapt or perish. But NO ONE owes you your place in the business world. You have to EARN it.

[USian Pie]

You know, I just wrapped up a graduate course on negotiation. The typical Guitar Center scenario would make a useful case study.

Obviously, you have the internet. This means you have access to a lot of information that gives you an advantage before you walk in. It doesn't take more than a few minutes to find out the best available price for new and used gear.

You also know that Guitar Center historically has a "best price" policy. If you like a guitar and say you can get it online for $x, they will try to match it.

They may argue that you have to pay shipping for an online deal. That's true, but the counterpoint is you probably don't have to pay sales tax.

The other points are the assumption of risk if you buy a guitar online (it might not be as good as the one in the store) and the fact that you can take the guitar home right now. How much those points matter is up to you. Personally, I don't mind paying a little more than bare minimum if the instrument is definitely a winner. Being able to play it that night is also worth a little money to me.

Ultimately, you determine the value of the guitar. How much is it worth to you? At what price point do you walk away? Decide in advance and stick firm to your position even if it means no deal and no guitar that day.

[Ronzo II]

Originally posted by USian Pie You know, I just wrapped up a graduate course on negotiation. The typical Guitar Center scenario would make a useful case study. Obviously, you have the internet. This means you have access to a lot of information that gives you an advantage before you walk in. It doesn't take more than a few minutes to find out the best available price for new and used gear. You also know that Guitar Center historically has a "best price" policy. If you like a guitar and say you can get it online for $x, they will try to match it. They may argue that you have to pay shipping for an online deal. That's true, but the counterpoint is you probably don't have to pay sales tax. The other points are the assumption of risk if you buy a guitar online (it might not be as good as the one in the store) and the fact that you can take the guitar home right now . How much those points matter is up to you. Personally, I don't mind paying a little more than bare minimum if the instrument is definitely a winner. Being able to play it that night is also worth a little money to me. Ultimately, you determine the value of the guitar. How much is it worth to you? At what price point do you walk away? Decide in advance and stick firm to your position even if it means no deal and no guitar that day.

 

 

What he said.

[sixty2strat]

JUst did my first order with MF, feel like {censored} .......one mom and pop had it for 3x the cost, a rogue sitar for as much as a jerry jones. I notice the atttitude at mom and pop getting piss poor.....signs that guitars are for serious buyers only, rules like you can't try it till you buy( no joke on that one). yesterday I was going to buy some polish from a shop, it was not marked and covered in dust, they had 2 boxs and figured they'd be glad to sell it....it was a HIGHLY recomanded brand so I grab a bottle seeing the gibson stuff is 4.95.....no one knows the price...suddley one guy goes oh yeah it's10 bucks .....when is something ever priced that way, 9.95.....I smell a possible rat and had only 8 bucks on me so anyway. I say no thanks, and the owner starts going on about how it's a permium brand...thats why it's more, getting all defensive as I leave : Hey what Was I going to do go I don't have enough money and go wow I think you price may be made up, or put it on my credit card, I just said forget it then. I think some of these shops have a seige mentality that ruins them ....not like the old days. in fact I picked up a new Melody maker and the kid comes running over Can I help you find something....said in the "voice"


Music stores are all starting to suck......most of my $$$ get spent at guitar shoes, a few buy tons of selection ansd better CS than most places: never thought the show dealers would become the nice guys

[hoerni]

Originally posted by Paul Buerk Absolutely. But it's also opened up opportunities for smaller players to work niches and expand their territories at the same time.

True. My local music store is Rondo. I'm sure some people have heard of them. Of all the local shops I used to frequent, they're currently the only one carrying a wide variety of instruments. Most of the other local music stores specialize in band instruments or lessons and have very little gear for sale (aside from starter packs). I guess they can't compete with GC.

They've always has great service whether your checking out a $99 SX or a $999 Strat. I've bought several cheaper instruments from them in the past few years and have always been treated well. Suprisingly, their prices on higher end stuff often beats the local GC or SA. I'm not sure how they do that. Either way, they have certainly put in the extra effort to earn repeat business.

Personally, I'll buy from just about anyone. I do tend to give preference to the local shops though. A few bucks is worth it to keep them around. Also, I usually only buy from GC on the days of the big sale when they're often selling things for below cost. That or a good deal on a used pedal.

[Europa760]

Originally posted by rangerkarlos Big box stores get tax breaks, create dying main streets, and pay stupidly low wages. I'd rather have thriving town to live, raise kids, work, and shop in that a giant commercial park on the outskirts of a cluster of townhouses. If that means supporting the local guy- that's my choice. Maybe I'm full of {censored}, as was stated above, but preserving a thriving local economy is important to me. This "Nothing matters but me" attitude is bad. Really bad. It's big picture stuff

 

 

what big picture might that be?

[Polaris20]

Originally posted by Europa760 what big picture might that be?

The decline of capitalism as we know it. The journey to a socialistic society, in which there's no viable competition.

Ok, I'm being melodramatic

[Paul Buerk]

I will also consider strongly NOT casting my vote for any representative in Congress who caves in on the online/across state lines tax exemption.

There are a couple different flavors going around now. The first is what you've described, and the second is the "National Sales Tax", which would substitute (as promised ) for a National Income Tax.

You clearly don't like the first one. In my opinion, though, it's not much different than a business that makes decisions based solely on the tax effects and not on any other valid business reasons, which is clearly illegal. It's one thing to say "I'll buy from Joe at (insert store name here) because he offers great prices, gives great attention to me as a customer, and I also won't have to pay a sales tax" than it is to say "I'll just buy it out of state so that I won't pay a sales tax, and I'll ignore the use tax."

Instead of having to mandate a set nationwide tax rate, I'd suggest that all retailers collect sales tax on all sales at their normal rate regardless of where the buyer lives and where the products are used.

The second one, where we'd have no income tax but instead have a sales tax of around 33% or so is one I have a hard time accepting. Retailers don't like it for obvious reasons, and it makes it just that much harder on those people that can afford it least. Unless, of course, it's only charged on the sale of yachts and houses over $1 Million.

[jerry_picker]

Originally posted by Ronzo II Well, one way you could do that is to buy something that's been on the shelf for awhile. If you know the serial number schema for what you want to buy at places like that, you have a powerful tool at your disposal. I bought my Tele from Sam Ash on that basis, letting them know that this was made in 2002 for a 2004 sale, and pointing out some shopworn aspects of it -- never mind that it was an incredible player, even with the minor cosmetic issues. Walked out the door with the 2002 NOS in sunburst for $275, including a complete setup and two new tuners. I did OK.

Good post!

I recently snagged a Classic 50's MIM Tele for $350 NOS. Great player, minor shop wear, one-year-behind SN. Just knowing the meaning of serial numbers gives you a bargaining chip, "Hey, your "new" guitar is a 2003 and it looks a little dusty and shopworn ...I'll give you $ XXX.XX, cash money for it."

In little shops, the owners sometimes get sentimental over their NOS, and become hesitant to part with them at anything below full retail.

[hoerni]

Originally posted by jerry_picker In little shops, the owners sometimes get sentimental over their NOS, and become hesitant to part with them at anything below full retail.

That's the truth. There's one shop about a 1/2 hour from me that is full of 80's Charvels. It's scary. Almost all are above market value.

Another place we visit (real hole in the wall little shop) had a guitar hanging from the ceiling that was NOS from the mid-70s.

[Polaris20]

Originally posted by Paul Buerk The second one, where we'd have no income tax but instead have a sales tax of around 33% or so is one I have a hard time accepting. Retailers don't like it for obvious reasons, and it makes it just that much harder on those people that can afford it least. Unless, of course, it's only charged on the sale of yachts and houses over $1 Million.

 

 

{censored}, I'll take it! The government already gets over 30% of my income anyway, so getting my whole check, + 33-40% on purchases is a good deal.

 

$500 guitar, costs $665 out the door, but I get way more every two weeks on my check.

 

Sold!

[walt0915]

Originally posted by Polaris20 {censored}, I'll take it! The government already gets over 30% of my income anyway, so getting my whole check, + 33-40% on purchases is a good deal. $500 guitar, costs $665 out the door, but I get way more every two weeks on my check. Sold!

 

 

Significant motivation to invest - or just plain save.

 

Nah, that's heresey!

[TeleCastrMaster]

Originally posted by rangerkarlos Big box stores get tax breaks, create dying main streets, and pay stupidly low wages. I'd rather have thriving town to live, raise kids, work, and shop in that a giant commercial park on the outskirts of a cluster of townhouses. If that means supporting the local guy- that's my choice. Maybe I'm full of {censored}, as was stated above, but preserving a thriving local economy is important to me. This "Nothing matters but me" attitude is bad. Really bad. It's big picture stuff

 

 

1. What are these tax breaks of which you speak?

 

2. Main Streets are being RESURRECTED!!! It's called "New Urbanism". All the rage, you know.

 

3. The people that work there must think it's an adequate wage. Or else they wouldn't work there. And anyway, a salesperson, earning a commission, will prefer to work someplace with a decent-sized inventory and a high volume. Doesn't describe the average mom&pop...

 

The old cliche is "Small Business is the Backbone of the American Economy!!!"

 

Bull{censored}.

 

Small business is in the same ocean as big business. IF they're going to survive, they have to find a way to avoid being swallowed by the bigger fish... because that's what big fish do. It's nothing personal- it's just the food chain.

 

If the little guy CAN'T figure out how to compete,given the reality of the ocean, they won't survive. And oh well. I for one won't shed a tear.

 

And since the vast majority of people who think that low price really IS important, and rely heavily on this concept to make their purchasing decisions... well, you know, I guess I think these people are pretty darn logical.

 

I just can't argue with their choices.

[Europa760]

interesting

[jfreaksho]

Originally posted by TeleCastrMaster And since the vast majority of people who think that low price really IS important, and rely heavily on this concept to make their purchasing decisions... well, you know, I guess I think these people are pretty darn logical.

 

 

and we all know that most people are stupid. Most people don't care about things unless it affects them, or they know a lot about it. Even if it does affect them, if it doesn't affect them now, people don't care. Most people who smoke continue to do it, even knowing how bad it is for them. Just about everyone nowadays hears how bad drugs are, but that doesn't stop a lot of people. It makes them feel good now, so the future be damned.

 

I like my local shops. They provide better service. They have more interesting gear. If I want a new Fender, Gibson, Marshall, or Mesa, I may look at GC, but probably not even then. All the shops that I buy from have their own little niche, and they are succeeding. GC is attempting to pander to the lowest common denominator of guitarist, and I don't like it.

 

GC is like the top 40 chart: Huge, making tons of money from a wide variety of people, but with no product or service that really interests me. It is a store like Walmart, for the unwashed masses, and I feel dirty any time I go there.

J.

[Europa760]

Originally posted by jfreaksho and we all know that most people are stupid. Most people don't care about things unless it affects them, or they know a lot about it. Even if it does affect them, if it doesn't affect them now, people don't care. Most people who smoke continue to do it, even knowing how bad it is for them. Just about everyone nowadays hears how bad drugs are, but that doesn't stop a lot of people. It makes them feel good now, so the future be damned. I like my local shops. They provide better service. They have more interesting gear. If I want a new Fender, Gibson, Marshall, or Mesa, I may look at GC, but probably not even then. All the shops that I buy from have their own little niche, and they are succeeding. GC is attempting to pander to the lowest common denominator of guitarist, and I don't like it. GC is like the top 40 chart: Huge, making tons of money from a wide variety of people, but with no product or service that really interests me. It is a store like Walmart, for the unwashed masses, and I feel dirty any time I go there. J.

 

 

honestly, id say all of this is true. it all makes sense to me.

 

However, what im curious about, is how buying something cheaper at walmart contributes to the downfall in society, or how buying from the local guy improves it?

 

it simply helps that one business, that doesn't help our community, or the big picture.

 

how does buying big retail, hurt us and buying from small shop, help us?

 

im more interested in a concrete answer than "the big picture" im sure there are good answers and valid, but no one is discussing it.

 

as far as i can tell, GC employees may not know you on a personal level, or know as much(in many cases), but how does GC hurt the community?

[Paul Buerk]

GC is attempting to pander to the lowest common denominator of guitarist, and I don't like it.

That's an interesting way to put it. Sometimes I am among the lowest common denominator, especially if I'm buying consumables (strings, picks, etc.). A Highway 1 Strat is going to be pretty much the same everywhere, whether that store is a GC or an independent. On the other hand, if I'm looking for a Loar L5, then the importance of where it's sold is huge.

99.99% of the gear that's bought by forumites is in the former category. The other 0.01% is the interesting stuff.

Bookstores went through this phase a few years ago, where the independents were crying foul about the big stores coming in, selling to the lowest common denominator, hurting not only the consumer the the art of literature itself. Most of the independent bookstores folded, and others found a niche they could survive in. While this was going on, one of the worlds premier chuckleheads got the idea that he could sell books over the internet and not even have to stock them himself. Some of the independent bookstore owners took their cue from Amazon.com and reached out to a huge market using the net.

Long story short - You can now buy the latest Harry Potter (or your wife can buy the latest Oprah list book) for a great price at your local Barnes and Noble, and you can find that obscure book on how to make a Savart violin on Amazon.com for not much more. The militant women's studies books are still available online despite most of the independent stores that cater to that market are gone.

[Polaris20]

Originally posted by Europa760 how does buying big retail, hurt us and buying from small shop, help us? im more interested in a concrete answer than "the big picture" im sure there are good answers and valid, but no one is discussing it.

 

 

I haven't really studied GC on an economic level, but in the case of Wal-Mart, it's pretty clear.

 

First of all, the entire Christmas season is decided on them as to whether it is a successful one or not. they're that big.

 

Second, they don't "buy American, when they can". they avoid it as much as possible.

 

Third, when they do, they bleed the American company dry until they get the price they want. Vlasic pickles was nearly bankrupted from Wal-Mart because they WM threatened to pull the whole Vlasic line unless they dropped a certain item's price to a given point.

 

The problem was that Vlasic was losing money on it, and in the quantities WM wanted, it nearly killed the company.

 

Nice company. Granted Wal-Mart is particularly blood thirsty, but I don't doubt for a second that their tactics float to other big chains.

 

We're not talking just big fish/small fish retailers. You guys forget there are a lot of small fish manufacturers getting screwed by bigbox retailers as well. Not just mom and pop retailers.

 

But it's easy to yell "CHEAP PRICE" and forget about the consequences when you don't realize what happens to a given industry behind the scenes, and how it is effected by being purely price driven.

[hoerni]

Originally posted by Europa760 However, what im curious about, is how buying something cheaper at walmart contributes to the downfall in society, or how buying from the local guy improves it?

 

 

I'll just throw out a few things here. You can find all the details googling.

 

1. Censorship - Walmart edits albums they carry and refuses to carry other albums. They price their CDs below most independant stores and when the independant stores are gone, you are left with censorred discs (or no discs if they don't carry it)

 

2. Employment - If you haven't heard about the lawsuits, you must be living under a rock.

 

3. Leverage - They are the biggest retailer, period. If you are an American manufacturer and Walmart wants to stock your product, they instantly become your biggest customer. Once you ramp up staff to meet their demand, they have you. They will demand a lower price on goods every year and audit your books to check for in-efficiencies. Eventually many manufacturers end up moving operations over-seas to meet demands. Now you have more people out of work in the US (coincidently, often the same people who shop at Walmart)

 

There was a good article on this in the past couple of years in Money magazine. You might be able to find reprints on line.

 

I don't know if GC has a similar power in the music world, I'm just pointing out the Walmart issues.

[Europa760]

i slipped and said wal mart.

{censored}. i meant GC.

wal marts a little more colorful as i can tell.

[TeleCastrMaster]

Originally posted by jfreaksho and we all know that most people are stupid.

Exhibit A

Originally posted by jfreaksho I like my local shops. They provide better service. They have more interesting gear. If I want a new Fender, Gibson, Marshall, or Mesa, I may look at GC, but probably not even then. All the shops that I buy from have their own little niche, and they are succeeding.

Which is actually exactly right. One way the little guy survives is by offering something the big guy doesn't.

GC caters to the masses, which is absolutely fine. GC sells the things that cater to the masses, which is also abslutely fine. GC DOESN'T sell niche market stuff, because it doesn't make economic sense for the to do so.

So you go to the little guy who's smart enough to have figured that out...

Which is absolutely fine.

Originally posted by jfreaksho It is a store like Walmart, for the unwashed masses, and I feel dirty any time I go there. J.

Dude, that's just weird...

[walt0915]

A couple of thoughts:

If I'm buying a guitar, I MUST be able to play it first. Mail order doesn't work unless I can ship back, no questions asked, and even then I prefer to buy what I can see.

If I can buy from a smaller local shop, from someone I have or could have a business relationship with, I do. I understand the value in that. A lot of people seem to think they should get that from these "warehouse" place. They don't seem to understand that is not the kind of business those people run.

At the same time, I'm not going to give my business to the little guy for nothing. I see no point in rewarding poor business, and in my experience many (if not most or all) of the businesses driven out by large corporate retail were not especially good businesses to start with.

Most of the small muscic stores in my area (and there aren't many) compete just fine with mail order. We don't have GC, so I don't know about that, but I have no reason to go to a place like that - other than selection. The one thing a big store does is give me a lot more guitars to choose from. And that's not really the little guy's fault. Its just kind of the nature of the beast.

[jfreaksho]

Originally posted by TeleCastrMaster Dude, that's just weird...

Check my moniker. I've never claimed to be normal.
J.

[Cackalacky]

Speaking of great small music stores, if you're ever in the DC area, check out Action Music, the owner, Matt is knowledgeable, fair, and has the choice used gear, and if you're selling, he'll actually give you a decent price, as opposed to being raped buy your local GC. Probably my fave store, regardless of location.