?'s on tracking drums using gates

[mstar]

I am interested in recording drum set which includes a kick, snare, rack tom, floor tom and two overheads. All of which will be multitracked to a computer. Should I use gates or not? If so, any recommendations on specific brand/model gates and settings. Or instead of using outboard gear, should I go with software plug-ins?

[MarkGifford-1]

NEVER gate to "tape." If it's not set perfectly, or your drummer isn't consistent, you can wind up in big trouble.

 

Do it after the fact, either with plug-ins or better yet, draw in volume curves on each channel.

 

MG

[where02190]

NEVER EVER use gates when tracking. One mistrigger means a ruined track, and you're 100% committed to the gates, there's no going back.

 

If you must, use them when you mix.

 

However a far better solution is to use automation to create specific volume curves for each tom hit. While time consuming, it is much more musical and far more accurate than any gate, unless you're going for that 80's Phil Collins sound.

[Lee Knight]

I was in a band tracking at a studio where the engineer came into the studio red-faced angry at our drummer for not pounding his kick?!?!? He said the gate kept mistriggering...

 

"Uh... do ya think ya might be able to gate it later Bucky?":confused:

[Phil O'Keefe]

I never gate when tracking, for all of the reasons already mentioned. Gates are best used at mixdown - not when tracking, and I'm not even a big fan of them at mixdown - as Mark said, you can usually get much better results with fader moves.

[Lee Knight]

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe I never gate when tracking, for all of the reasons already mentioned. Gates are best used at mixdown - not when tracking, and I'm not even a big fan of them at mixdown - as Mark said, you can usually get much better results with fader moves.

 

BTW Phil... since you're a fan of DigitalFishPhones. I used to mute or do fader moves on the toms until I discovered the Stereo Toms preset on Floorfish.

 

Create a stereo group for you toms, use the preset and tweak from there. It works great... you've range and release controls to fine tune to your needs.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Thanks for the tip Lee... I'll mess around with it a bit tonight if I get a chance. How does it work with really dynamic performances - with say, the toms doing a pre-chorus buildup / crescendo?

[Lee Knight]

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe Thanks for the tip Lee... I'll mess around with it a bit tonight if I get a chance. How does it work with really dynamic performances - with say, the toms doing a pre-chorus buildup / crescendo?

 

It's touchy as you might expect, but is a time saver, given the right circumstances.

 

Check it and see, time permiting...

[MrKnobs]

I'm an old live sound engineer and also a veteran of four and eight track formats. In those situations, if you wanted your drums gated you had to do it inbound or it didn't get done.

 

Now that I have lots of tracks, I realize intellectually that it's far safer to gate later, but I would also observe that it's quite possible to safely gate drums coming in and get it right the first time - just an unnecessary risk now. If you have a miking setup that strongly uses overheads the overheads will catch any light hit the gates might miss.

 

Those gates don't have to be set to 60 dB down either, it doesn't have to be on or off. And hysteresis is great for not cutting the tails.

 

Though I finally made myself not gate on the intake any more, I still set the gates up and tweak them so I can drop them in during sound check and give the drummer and myself an idea of what they'll sound like on the mix.

 

Gates (or volume envelopes) greatly improve the sound of rock drums, particularly those recorded in a bad sounding room.

 

But gates won't fix a lot of things. I had a guy come in with a horrendous ring in his floor tom, didn't want to take the time to fix it at the drum. He said, "You're automated, right? Just mute out the tom ring."

 

Yeah, right. From the wide open overheads and the snare mike, that'll work.

 

First rule of recording drums: MAKE THE DRUMS SOUND GOOD BEFORE YOU SLAP THE MIKES ON THEM.

 

Or else, like Zappa said, you'll end up fixing it in the shrink wrap.

 

Terry D.

[where02190]

 

First rule of recording drums: MAKE THE DRUMS SOUND GOOD BEFORE YOU SLAP THE MIKES ON THEM.

 

 

Amen. Garbage in, garbage out.

[raw-tracks]

Put triggers on the shells of the toms. Patch the triggers into the key input on the gates. Set the gate's range control to 10-20db down. Set attack to fast, adjust release to whatever sound best/most natural.

 

If you do that, you can gate toms to "tape" all day long and not have a problem.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by Lee Knight It's touchy as you might expect, but is a time saver, given the right circumstances. Check it and see, time permiting...

 

Well, I didn't have a chance last night to mess with it, but hopefully I will tomorrow night. Thanks again for the suggestion Lee.

[where02190]

 

Originally posted by raw-tracks Put triggers on the shells of the toms. Patch the triggers into the key input on the gates. Set the gate's range control to 10-20db down. Set attack to fast, adjust release to whatever sound best/most natural. If you do that, you can gate toms to "tape" all day long and not have a problem.

 

 

But why bother, since you can get the exact same results without worry when mixing. triggers can misread as well, and things like a slow dynamic swell are not going to be read properly. IF you set the gates to open on the slightest touch, a kick and snare hit will open them easily.

 

There is absoluterly NO advantage to gating when mixing, and there are many disadvantages. DON"T DO IT!!!!!

 

If the client is so poor at tuning that you need to gate and they insist on hearing their toms in the cans, then gate on the monitoring side.

[raw-tracks]

 

Originally posted by where02190 But why bother, since you can get the exact same results without worry when mixing.

 

 

Triggers make the gating process way easier than not using triggers. If you are going to record the triggers to use for gating later, fine. I prefer not too.

 

triggers can misread as well, and things like a slow dynamic swell are not going to be read properly. IF you set the gates to open on the slightest touch, a kick and snare hit will open them easily.

 

 

Have you used triggers on toms before to key gates? I'm getting the impression you have not. You can set your threshold incredibly low. You will be able to pick up any nuances, without fear of false triggering off the kick or snare.

 

There is absoluterly NO advantage to gating when mixing, and there are many disadvantages. DON"T DO IT!!!!!

 

 

Sure there's an advantage. Not having to mess with gating the toms at the mix is an advantage. One less thing to deal with when mixing.

 

I am not into this whole "put off all decisions until the mix" mentality.

 

If the client is so poor at tuning that you need to gate and they insist on hearing their toms in the cans, then gate on the monitoring side.

 

 

I'm not exactly sure what gating has to due with tuning. No gate is going to help with a poorly tuned drum.

[where02190]

I use triggers extensively, and have for decades. They are not the be all and end all answer. They pick up vibrations from the drums, if they are improperly tunes, sympathetics will set them off. I reguloarly use them to trigger sample to augment an acoustic kit. Yes you can set sensitivity lower, but they will still not pick up subtle nuances that are lesser in velocity than the surrounding drums you are gating out. If you set the threshold low enough an ajacent tom, snare or kick hit will open the trigger threshold, and mistrigger.

 

A well tuned kit needs no gates. Drums are one big instrument, not many little ones, and the toms, along with the rest of the kit, must work together, and this is done with proper tuning. Most engineers never use gates, and most recordings don't even use tom mics. the best drum tracks come frim a minimum of mics. The more mics in the equation, the more phase issues.

 

Treat the kit as one instrument, and, starting with overhead and room mics, using positioning, pickup patterns, tuning, head choice, room position and choice, capture that sound you hear in the room in your control room. You'll be amazed at the difference in clarity you get when there are only 4-5 mics incorporated.

 

It's not about putting off decisions, its about being smart. Why waste time getting proper gate settings when you have no idea if they are going to suite the final mix. If that was the case, we wouldn't need multitrack, we'd all just mix straight to a 2 mix and be done.

 

Options are ALWAYS a good thing.

[raw-tracks]

 

Originally posted by where02190 I reguloarly use them to trigger sample to augment an acoustic kit. Yes you can set sensitivity lower, but they will still not pick up subtle nuances that are lesser in velocity than the surrounding drums you are gating out.

 

Let's be clear, there is a big difference between using triggers to actually trigger a sample, and using triggers to key a gate. I am only talking about keying gates.

If you set the threshold low enough an ajacent tom, snare or kick hit will open the trigger threshold, and mistrigger.

 

Of course if you set the threshold low enough, it will be triggered by adjacent drums. What I am saying is that when using triggers to key gates, the triggers provide more than ample separation from adjacent drums to properly key the gate, without having to worry about adjacent drums. This has been my experience 100% of the time when using triggers to key gates on toms.

Most engineers never use gates, and most recordings don't even use tom mics.

 

I would agree that most engineer's don't use gates REGULARLY, myself included. However, to say that most recordings do not use tom mics is simply uninformed. You might qualify that with a genre. Jazz? That's most likely true. Rock, Metal? Not even close to the truth. Toms mics are relied upon heavily in those genres.

[where02190]

I'm talking about triggering gates wtih them as well. Trigger rely on vibration to send impulses. If a bass drum mounted tom is tuned very open, the kick drum WILL give the TRIGGER enough vibration to open a gate that a light hit directly on the tom won't.

 

But you keep using your triggers, and the rest of us will do it the way we want.

 

Bottom line, triggers are not perfect.

[MrKnobs]

 

Originally posted by where02190 A well tuned kit needs no gates. Drums are one big instrument, not many little ones, and the toms, along with the rest of the kit, must work together, and this is done with proper tuning. Yes, the kit should have a cohesive sound and tuning is critical. Most engineers never use gates, and most recordings don't even use tom mics. the best drum tracks come frim a minimum of mics. The more mics in the equation, the more phase issues. Disagree. What's "best?" Depends on the style of music. You can get a good sound with a couple of Earthworks overhead condensers and a kick mike, but it doesn't sound the same as a set of close miked drums. Which is better? Depends on what you're trying to do. More mikes = phase issues is only true when you don't use gates. Fewer mikes OR gates are two ways to not have the drum set sound like it was recorded in someone's garage. Each has it's own characteristic sound. Treat the kit as one instrument, and, starting with overhead and room mics, using positioning, pickup patterns, tuning, head choice, room position and choice, capture that sound you hear in the room in your control room. You'll be amazed at the difference in clarity you get when there are only 4-5 mics incorporated. With four or five mikes you can close mike most kits. It's not about putting off decisions, its about being smart. Why waste time getting proper gate settings when you have no idea if they are going to suite the final mix. If that was the case, we wouldn't need multitrack, we'd all just mix straight to a 2 mix and be done. It's just different styles of working. Me, I agree with you because I have to work quickly and I can't afford to discover my gates didn't work right after the client has already finished the session. I have used shell triggers to key gates, I have used frequency keyed gates, I have used low attenuation amounts, I've used high thresholds with hysteresis. No matter what you do, gates aren't perfect. Some little finesse thing is going to be lost with the gate closed. The good news is the overhead mikes, which are not gated, will pick up everything and smooth over any small mistakes. My working method is to quickly dial in the gates during the drum check, so that I can hear what the set is going to sound like with gates at mixdown. It's actually pretty hard to EQ with all the gates open and guess what the EQ will be when the gates are operating. Then I disengage the gates to record the set. I save the snapshot with the gates engaged and the EQ dialled in. Options are ALWAYS a good thing. Until you're drowning in them. Sometimes there's an acute shortage of time - especially live.

 

 

Terry D.

[Kiwiburger]

I don't have much experience with recording real drums - only getting into that now, after years of using midi and samples.

 

However - I have big issues with gates for anything, whether guitars, vocals, drums, whatever.

 

I sometimes use software gates during mixing - they have their uses, but these are my specific problems with gates:

 

1 - during tracking, you simply risk losing stuff. Even using tricks, like seperate sidechains, it's just a risk, and I hate risks.

 

2 - most of the gates i'm familiar with (usually in digital boxes like PODs or whatever) are either too slow, or too sensistive, and they just make an absolute mess of the tail of your sound. I much prefer a clean mute or fade, which I find is best done at mixtime with track automation.

 

3 - my pet hate about using gates as 'noise gates' is that they never remove noise from your audio. They only remove it when the audio isn't there (which is where you would be better to automate the fader). When your audio is present, the noise comes through unaffected. So all it does is fool you (the engineer, not the end user) that the noise doesn't exist, but it does - and by sweeping it under the carpet you aren't dealing with it properly.

 

4 - since when did gates solve phase issues? If you have a phase problem with your multiple mic's - you have a major problem with your basic tone. Gate just hides the problem, rather like hiding noise.

 

5 - Note off events are just as important to the groove as Note on events. With a gate, I find there isn't enough control over the note off timing. Even if the gate time is set very accurately to the desired note length, it is still at the whim of the note on timing. That's why, if a gate effect is needed, I much prefer midi gating (even for non-midi stuff). It's easy enough to create a midi track specifically for the gate, and then you have complete control over the groove. (I do tend to work with a midi grid to start with, and then replace with real instruments for natural feel. This would probably be harder for free-time stuff, but still do-able).

 

So that just my take on gates - basically I hate 'em. But now that i'm getting into recording real drums, i'm seeing the possible need. But I will definitely be avoiding them during tracking, and trying to minimise their use at mixtime.

[MrKnobs]

 

Originally posted by Kiwiburger 4 - since when did gates solve phase issues? If you have a phase problem with your multiple mic's - you have a major problem with your basic tone. Gate just hides the problem, rather like hiding noise.

 

 

Well someone said putting multiple mikes on the drums causes phasing issues, to which I say not necessarily.

 

First off, the overheads can be time aligned to the close mikes by "slipping" their track forward, meaning eliminating the delay as the sound travels the several feet between the close mikes to the overheads. That alone can sometimes tighten up the overall sound.

 

Where gates (or automation) can come in is on the drums that are not being played. The drummer has only two arms and two legs (sometimes fewer) so he can't be hitting all the drums at the same time. Therefore there's no reason to have the unused mikes open (usually the toms) when they're not being used.

 

Every open mike is a potential phase problem as all mikes hear every sound from every source to some degree, but at different times. If you have a whole bunch of open mikes on the drums, you get the classic "recorded in a garage" type of sound.

 

Well, especially you get that if the drums are actually in your garage.

 

Some people avoid the phase problem by using fewer mikes, others avoid it by closing the unused mikes, either by automation or gating. But these two methods sound very different, it all depends on what sort of sound you're going for.

 

Terry D.

[where02190]

 

Originally posted by MrKnobs First off, the overheads can be time aligned to the close mikes by "slipping" their track forward, meaning eliminating the delay as the sound travels the several feet between the close mikes to the overheads.

 

 

Time alignment will not solve phase issues. The waveform phase relationship remains the same no matter where you move them in time.

 

Also, time aligning close mics and overheads or room mics defeats part of the purpose of these mics, as the distance from the kit is part of the sound. Do you listen to a drummer with your ear against the snare drum? Of course you don't.

 

No my friend, gating does nothing to solve phase issues.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by where02190 No my friend, gating does nothing to solve phase issues.

 

If a mike is off, it has no phase issues.

 

We must be talking apples and oranges. What do you think a phase issue is, exactly?

 

Terry D.

[Kiwiburger]

The way I see it, Silence is the most powerful sound on earth. I can totally see the benefit of muting a track when it isn't needed. I just don't think using a gate while tracking is the best place to do that - for the many reasons I gave above.

 

But if your mic's have a phase problem, gating can't help. It's like if you have a hum problem, gating can't help. All it does is hide it from you when the signal drops - which is about the time you should be muting it in the mix anyway. Achieves nothing except a false sense of security. The hum - or the phase issue - is right there in the signal when you need it most.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Kiwiburger But if your mic's have a phase problem, gating can't help. It's like if you have a hum problem, gating can't help. All it does is hide it from you when the signal drops - which is about the time you should be muting it in the mix anyway. Achieves nothing except a false sense of security. The hum - or the phase issue - is right there in the signal when you need it most.

 

Hum and phase are two very different things.

 

Tell me what you mean by "phase problem."

 

Terry D.

[Kiwiburger]

Well lets say that due to the distances between your snare mic and your overhead mic, you have a nasty notch filter effect.

 

Obviously the overheads can't be gated. Maybe if you gate the snare it might appear to sound cleaner, but you haven't solved this phase-related issue at all.

 

When the gate is open - ie. when you are hearing the snare - you still have that notch-filter effect over both snare and overheads. Expect now it's chopping in and out, so you can't even 'fix' it eq.