?'s on tracking drums using gates

[Kiwiburger]

To which you would probably say, move the snare track to align. Which is basically my point - gating doesn't fix phase issues. You have to fix phase issues some other way.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Kiwiburger Well lets say that due to the distances between your snare mic and your overhead mic, you have a nasty notch filter effect. Obviously the overheads can't be gated. Maybe if you gate the snare it might appear to sound cleaner, but you haven't solved this phase-related issue at all. When the gate is open - ie. when you are hearing the snare - you still have that notch-filter effect over both snare and overheads. Expect now it's chopping in and out, so you can't even 'fix' it eq.

 

OK, now we're getting somewhere. Good post.

 

First, we're talking about the same thing. Notch or "comb" filtering giving unwanted and unpleasant EQ effects due to arrival of the same signal to different mikes at different times. The signals combine out of phase at various frequency multiples, and in phase at others.

 

You're right, nobody gates overheads and snares are the other instrument that rarely gets gated. It's the same reason for both, subtle things are happening that you don't want to miss when a gate doesn't open. With overheads, stuff is happening all the time so a gate is useless.

 

Stripping a kit down to the minimum miking configuration is one way to do it. You *could* use just two overheads, or even one, plus a kick mike and get a decent sound with a minimum of phasing due to mike interaction.

 

However, this produces a characteristic sound that you may or may not want, requires very careful placement of the overhead mikes since imbalances between instruments won't be correctable at mix time. That's all fine if that's the sound you're looking for, and have a great sounding room to contribute to the overall sound.

 

Or, you can close mike. You still start with one or two overheads (two gives a nice stereo spread and a more forgiving arrangement as far as balancing the instruments), one eliminates the possibility of phase issues.

 

I often run two cardioid overheads in a coincident pair configuration, since this gives a mild stereo image while also eliminating the phasing issue by having the mikes nearly touching. Any sound arrives at both mikes nearly simultaneously.

 

As an aside, this is how the sound intensity probes I use at my day job operate, and the industry standard for measuring noise.

 

Place a mike in the kick drum and you're ready to go. The kick mike hears the rest of the kit dimly through the kick shell, and adds a little phase cancellation but not much. Upstairs, the overhead mikes are also hearing the kick, but a little moving the mikes and a little EQ and the overall sound is pleasing.

 

Start to add tom and snare mikes and the situation gets more complex. I agree with you that the snare and overhead mikes will interact and that placement is important. Most practitioners solve this problem by keeping the overheads at a reasonable height, and by miking the snare very close to the head with a directional mike. The amount of non-snare sound picked up by the snare mike is fairly small, with the exception of the hi hat, which requires careful placement of the snare mike.

 

Toms are easy. One close mike for each, either gated after the fact, or muted by automation between hits.

 

When I close mike drums, I gate the toms and the kick. I build the mix from the overheads down, using the overheads as my primary kit sound. Kick gets added next since the overheads don't capture the solid fundamental needed for rock. Snare mike comes in to add some crack and punch to what's recorded in the overheads. Finally, the (gated) toms to add more punch to the overhead sound.

 

Whenever you have more than one microphone you will have some phase interaction between the mikes. You can't eliminate it, you can only minimize and control it to get a pleasing sound. Mike placement, gates, automation, all are legitimate and useful ways of dealing with the problem.

 

Yes, when a gate opens the phasing effect between that mike and the overheads is still there. But phasing problem (hopefully already minimized by careful placement) is NOT THERE when the mike is closed, which can be most of the time in the case of tom mikes. You don't have the tom mikes polluting the sound of the snare, hat, etc. when the toms aren't being struck. This can be a huge improvement, especially when you have a lot of toms.

 

When the tom IS struck, and the gate DOES open, any phase problem reappears as you correctly state, but it is minimized by the closeness of the mike to the drum and the loudness of the close mike compared to the overheads. And - most importantly - the other tom mikes are still closed.

 

Obviously, if the drummer were able to hit every instrument at once, and inclined to do so, gating would be of marginal benefit if at all. But that's not how it works in reality. In reality, at any given instant, only one or a few elements of the kit are being struck, and typically the non-cymbal elements have a very quick decay. The overhead mikes, which are always open, act as the "glue" that holds the whole closed miked set together.

 

So, to summarize:

 

(1) Fundamentally, we agree. You can't solve all phasing issues with gating/automation, but you can damn sure improve things and that's why it's done every day. When you have a kit with six or more mikes on it things start to get complex.

 

(2) Minimal miking is all well and good, and solves some problems, but it sounds fundamentally different from close miking and therefore becomes a matter of taste. Neither is better; it depends on what sort of drum sound the material calls for. Using just one or two overheads plus a kick mike increases the importance of the room sound.

 

(3) Setting aside room reflections (and to some degree, reflections from the kit surfaces), phase IS time IS distance and adjusting either of the two latter things changes the phase interaction of two or more mikes. Distance is adjusted by moving the mikes, time can be adjusted by slipping tracks. Of course you can also reverse the phase of a mike electrically.

 

(4) Using gates or automated mutes/fades after the fact can audibly clean up a drum track substantially, make it more focused, tight, and punchier. I would hope no one disputes this, it's easy to test first hand if you have a recording setup.

 

(5) Using gates DURING recording gives the same effect, but it's non-correctable if you set the gates wrong. And it's hard to set the gates perfectly. Use of shell triggers for keying the gates, use of frequency-keyed gating, use of mild gate attenuation (instead of on/off), use of gates with hysteresis control (recovery has a different slope than the attack) all make it easier to get the gates right during the performance, but there is still the small possibility you'll end up with a glaring error on the take. Better to preserve your options for mixdown, IMO.

 

I'll close with one further statement: you can't fix a time domain problem in the frequency domain. In this context, that means EQ won't fix a phasing issue. You have to get the mike placement right or move the track in time to correct it. Both techniques are used all the time.

 

Terry D.

[Kiwiburger]

Thanks Terry - excellent information. I'm just starting out with seriously mic'ing a drumkit, being totally electronic for years.

 

I must admit I tend to favour tracking individual drums in isolation. That's mainly because i'm a sloppy drummer, and i'm trying to sound like samples, but without the boredom factor.

 

I do understand the need for gating/muting, but i'm still far from convinced that it's best done while tracking.

 

Some of that is because i'm too cheap to buy hardware gates, when I can apply software gates in the mix. Or automate the mute or fader. Or digitally edit.

 

Tom fills are something i've long realised can't be quantised - so even with midi pads, I would play them in for natural timing. So with real toms, i'm inclined to record the fills several times, choose the best and paste that in wherever wanted. I've been working in a non-linear way for years - it's a bit of a change to go back to recording full performances. (Takes me back to my 4 track days in the '80's).

[where02190]

Most phase issues with drums are between tom and snare mics that are in too close proximity to themselves. Oveheads and room mics generally are ouside the 3:1 rule of distance to avoid phase issues. However, toms can often have mics that interact with eachother or the snare mic, inwhich case becomes very apparant and an issue for clarity when the gate opens, which is when the mic signal is needed to be clean and phase coherant. Sometimes this can be cured with inverting one of the mics, but placement is often the proper cure, which of course cannot be corrected during mixdown. A gate in this instance will nto solve the problem, unless of course you want that 80's phil collins sound.

[MrKnobs]

 

Originally posted by where02190 However, toms can often have mics that interact with eachother or the snare mic, inwhich case becomes very apparant and an issue for clarity when the gate opens, which is when the mic signal is needed to be clean and phase coherant.

 

 

Consider that the toms are not generally struck all at the same time, which is why muting/gates does fix that problem.

 

Regarding your other comment about inverting phase on the mike: sometimes it helps, but the best you can hope for is that the phase summations you get that way will be better than the other way. Phase relationships get increasingly complicated as more mikes are put up. There's no complete fix, only acceptable solutions.

 

The 3:1 rule can be useful, but it's better to understand the rationale behind it.

 

Terry D.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Kiwiburger I do understand the need for gating/muting, but i'm still far from convinced that it's best done while tracking.

 

I don't disagree at all with that. One mistake means having to tell the client, "Ooopsie, can you guys play that perfect high energy take again?" Damn, I hate it when it's me that screws something up.

 

I have to force myself to do the gating during mixdown (instead of during tracking) because I came from a live sound background where, as they say, "it is what it is" and you don't get a "later."

 

Terry D.

[where02190]

Mr Knobs, may times the toms are struck at the same time, and even if they are not, unless they are covered in tampons and used kleenex, they will be decaying well into the ajacent toms attack on a fill. If there's a phase issue going on, one of two things happen, you get phase cancellation, or you get a phil colins drum sound because you gated off all the decay way before it was below audible threshold.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by where02190 Mr Knobs, may times the toms are struck at the same time, and even if they are not, unless they are covered in tampons and used kleenex, they will be decaying well into the ajacent toms attack on a fill. If there's a phase issue going on, one of two things happen, you get phase cancellation, or you get a phil colins drum sound because you gated off all the decay way before it was below audible threshold.

 

Well, I do tend to put deadringers on the toms when I do that. For that style of music I don't really want the toms ringing for four measures. As they say, writing about music is like dancing about architecture. I really should post a clip, though I think at this point the only two people still interested in this argument are you and me, and I'm not sure about me.

 

How do you close mike drums, and what do you do about perceived phase issues, if any? Just mike placement and polarity reversal on the mikes? Or do you never close mike drums?

 

Thanks,

 

Terry D.

[where02190]

even with deadringers, there's decay on your toms that, if you set the hold and release times so the tom is muted when you hit the next tom would sound very unnatural in an 80's kind of way.

 

While I always track close mics on toms, I rarely use them. Placement, proper head choice for the genre, good tuning of a good sounding kit in a good sounding room, make recording drums with a minimal of mics rather simple.

 

Typically I use AKG 414's on toms in cardiod. For jazz, if I need to close mic (rare if ever) I'll often use them in omni, which allows me to get even closer without proximity effect, but that'd depending on the drummer not being a wild hitter.

 

Second choice is usually Sennheiser e609 silvers or Shure SM98's.

 

About 80% of the time these close mic tracks never get used. Typically I'll end up using (in order of importance) overheads/room mics, kick and occaisionally snare, although usually I end up just using the track to send to a reverb, not using the dry snare track on it's own.