Members flatfinger Posted July 9, 2011 Members Share Posted July 9, 2011 From http://rockstargamer.wordpress.com/2011/01/24/spotify-struggles-for-profitability/ How harder? Well, this year Spotify closed with a huge 19M€ loss. So huge that investors pressed for an US launch ASAP or else. Spotify managed to double its losses every year until 2009 (2M€ in 2007, 4.4M€ in 2008), the huge peak in losses it’s not completely unexpected. Popularity doesn’t always pay off in the streaming business and extreme and viral marketing couldn’t help you cope with the expenses and poor planning. This year (19 million euros stated in this article ;thats 27 million greenbacks!!) Of course everybody who uses it likes it !!! everybody likes free or cheap !!!But 27 million bucks down the drain isn't going to keep venture capital enamored for long !! Another major problem is that despite the user base has already crossed 15M active users, no more than 750.000 premium accounts has been subscribed in three years and the company doesn’t divulge the renewal rates. Same old same old act from the freetards of the world !! something for nothing , total parasites!! As a Product Manager I must say that the business did so many marketing and technical blunders that it’s very daring to hope for profitability in the midterm, Investors are going to pull the rug out soon enough ............ get ready for it Sven!!( and get ready for a big "TOLD YOU SO " ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 9, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 9, 2011 No, Fatfinger, I don't need a Big I told You So if spotify Tanks..I'll admit I was wrong like a man. However I think they are going to be a huge hit. All ya have to do is use it. Mobile is the future and the will convert a lot of people to paid mobile users. I have used it a lot in Europe and I have many friends who use it. It ain't going away brothers. It's THAT good. Apple's iCloud service has potential as well. Could kick spotify's ass in this country because the Big Corps wouldn't let Spotify launch here for the last couple years which has made them fall behind and Apple catch up idea-wise. Either way, THIS model is the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted July 9, 2011 Members Share Posted July 9, 2011 As much as I truly admire your temerity ,... When they continue to hemorage capital like they are doing it's hard to concieve that they can make it . However ; sometimes truth is stranger that fiction !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 9, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 9, 2011 Has Youtube ever been profitable? No...Spotify WILL become profitable and it's certainly NOT going to shut down..It's got MILLIONS of users man..someone is going to give it money to run until it can turn a profit. It's making money and people love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted July 10, 2011 Members Share Posted July 10, 2011 I'm with the Resident Cynic on this one. It doesn't matter if people love it, it doesn't matter how many people use it, and it doesn't matter how awesome it is - if they can't make money, the investors propping it up will eventually leave. Yes, there are companies like YouTube that do not make money, but YouTube was bought out by Google, and they understand the future for YouTube... every year that goes by, the cost of storage and the cost of CPU decreases in terms of what you can get for you money. YouTube will get cheaper and cheaper for Google run. Even if it doesn't make a profit, Google can bankroll it forever. That doesn't mean that anyone can have an Internet business that loses money forever. But none of us have a crystal ball. There are three ways this can end: 1. They never make a profit and eventually die.2. They manage to talk the majors and indies into taking teeny tiny payments, and they become profitable (and huge.)3. They get bought up by some big ass company like Google, who will either continue to run them, or scrap them for parts and people. I will definitely use the free version when it comes out (if there IS a free version.) I'm not against it - I think it would be cool. But everyone wants to put music subscription up as the savior of the new music biz, and it isn't, because the model does not yet work, financially. Get all the labels, big and small, to reduce what it costs to license their music for streaming, and it will work. But the labels are not going to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted July 10, 2011 Members Share Posted July 10, 2011 Oh, one more thing. I'm making money on Spotify right now! Well, I'm making pennies, but that's how it works now. I am happy that my music got on Spotify. Must have happened via CDBaby. My last Spotify sale was two days ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted July 10, 2011 Members Share Posted July 10, 2011 http://www.gadgetell.com/technologytell/article/spotify-could-launch-next-week-in-us/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 10, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 10, 2011 Spotify will not go bankrupt and shut down. It will flourish. I know i'm right because, well I'm usually right about this kind of stuff I don't know why, but I am ) Got my finger on the pulse so to speak. Icloud, Spotify...The future....Music Sales=DEAD. Bank on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted July 10, 2011 Members Share Posted July 10, 2011 CRAP! I just typed a huge diatribe and accidentally left the web page and it all went away! I put like 20 minutes into it! Dammit! Well, as Jimmy Buffett says, it's my own damn fault. So I'll give you the summary. IMHO nothing in the music biz is going to change drastically. They've cut down on illegal downloads by shutting down Limewire. They can't eliminate illegal downloads but they did put a dent in them. The current situation in both the music and movies business looks like this - some people buy the stuff, some people stream the stuff, and some people steal the stuff. Streaming is not new in the US. We've had Rhapsody for a while and there are others. And for the most part they've been ignored by the public. People would be very very interested in the free part of Spotify, if that comes to pass. People will try out "free" all day. But to get them to plunk down money and subscribe - they're not doing it now. Why would they start? For free, yes, but free won't make money. I think the majors signed a deal with Spotify knowing that they will eventually fail. But in the meantime the labels will take their cut of the Spotify pie. In the US, we like to own stuff. So a streaming model won't work, unless it is free. Like I said, if I can stream for free, I'll install the software. But really, I can already stream almost any song for free now, on YouTube. When I want to learn a cover tune, I go to YouTube and pull it up. But if Spotify is free and better quality, I would use that instead. The only way streaming works, as I said, is if the big labels decide that their product is worth a lot less money. But that's not going to happen. A few years ago my prediction for CD sales was that they were going to hit rock bottom, sit there, and then stabilize there. This year, the music biz actually reported an increase in sales over last year. I think the patient is stable. And the mix of selling music, streaming music, and stealing music will continue. But it's not business as usual. For small time artists, we can't plunk a CD down at a merch table for $10 and expect it to sell. Five bucks is more doable. The business of selling music has downsized. That's why I like Bandcamp - because you can charge what you want, unlike iTunes. But it is surprising how many people are very impressed if you have your music on iTunes. It's like having your CD professionally duplicated instead of making your own and writing on it with magic marker. Who the hell knows. I'm just guessing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted July 10, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 10, 2011 The only way 'for free' succeeds in this country is by taking advantage of the tried and true commercial media profile...advertising mixed in with the sugar...again, this will make music not the product, but the lure. Back to the same old same old. People pay tons of money for cable television, and satellite TV...and still...there are commercials. For a service like Spotify to make it here, they will need to find this in some formulation...paid services like XM, to Rhapsody are not generating huge numbers....sustainable, yes, but not huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted July 10, 2011 Members Share Posted July 10, 2011 A few years ago my prediction for CD sales was that they were going to hit rock bottom, sit there, and then stabilize there. This year, the music biz actually reported an increase in sales over last year. I think the patient is stable. And the mix of selling music, streaming music, and stealing music will continue. Who the hell knows. I'm just guessing. This^^^^As far as illegal downloading goes, they are only going to fight to curtail it. They can't stop it and they know it. Kinda like the "war" on drugs.Free streaming will be around as long as it is free. OPM keeps free going, not the customer. As soon as the end user has to pay, it will be obscure and used only by music fanatics. Which are few. They don't buy GaGa.And as long as it costs money to make music, the folks who made it will be trying to sell it.So I agree, the patient is stable. ...our viking friend's intuition aside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Poker99 Posted July 11, 2011 Members Share Posted July 11, 2011 Spotify will be a huge success in burning investors money. Get real... No one will pay for this, except a motivated minority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 11, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 11, 2011 Damn..I feel like the lone soldier here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Poker99 Posted July 12, 2011 Members Share Posted July 12, 2011 Damn..I feel like the lone soldier here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted July 12, 2011 Members Share Posted July 12, 2011 You're not the lone soldier... you're the optimist. Looking at all the trends and evidence, it's a good bet that Spotify will fail. But sometimes everyone is wrong and something takes off like no one could imagine. Apple was almost bankrupt in 1998. Steve Jobs came back, and fast forward to 2011 and Apple is worth more than Microsoft. Who the hell would have imaged that? So we could be wrong on this one. Time will tell the tale of Spotify. Like I said, I think Spotify will fail but will pave the way for the next company to try it, and they'll succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 12, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 12, 2011 I just don't see it because if anyone has tried spotify which of all of us, I think i'm the only one in this thread who has used it, they will see that it's {censored}ing awesome! The perfect mousetrap has been built so the "next company" is going to have to rip them off to be as good and why would they succeed where Spotify Failed? Bottom line, from the consumer perspective, it's a winner and always has been. From the backwards-ass non-forward thinking perspective of the music industry it's a tough sell. Well guess what? The industry no longer controls the game. The CONSUMER/Fan does...This is what the industry and many here fail to realize or accept. Anyway, I'm not the optimist so much as the person who is thinking of the bigger picture in a different way. Side issue is that I think the same thing about the Nashville Music Row establishment. I think the paradigm or model that the business is basedon which is sales and radio airplay is diminishing to the point where not enough money can be earned and these people are going to have to move into the future, reinvent the business of go the way of the Horse and Buggy salesmen. I'm waiting for that day because everyone I talk to is sick of the manufactured bull{censored} they put out and the only reason it sells anything is the Multi-million dollar marketing they put behind this {censored}..We're all frankly sick of seeing time and time again the worst person on stage in all respects, being the signed one. The days of {censored} are coming to an end. Ya better be good or people will move on. There's just too much good..I honestly believe it's going to have to go back to real talent, real good {censored}ing songs with real good artists who can sing and play. Call me the optimist and yes I may be in the minority but EVERYONE I know and respect who is at the level i'm at full time in this business, and has the level of experience and knowledge I have, feels the same way as me. It's just that the suits have the money. When their model breaks down, like it is currently in the process of doing, only then will we see some changes. I feel those changes I outlined are inevitable and I can't wait!! So, yea I guess I am the optimist in some respects:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted July 12, 2011 Members Share Posted July 12, 2011 Regarding the first point, money talks. Spotify is a big gamble. If it succeeds, eventually, then the investors will make a fortune. If it fails, the investors will lose their money. Happens all the time. I understand the point about users loving it. Mac users are the same way. I have never run antivirus software and never needed it. 90% of the world uses Windows and suffers through all kinds of adware, spyware, viruses, and all kinds of crap. I can't for the life of me understand why people put up with that. That's not all... the Windows OS is capable of blowing itself up with no help simply by installing apps that screw up the registry. There are tons of reasons why the Mac is better, there are usability studies that show it's easier to learn and use. I feel about the Mac the same way you feel about Spotify. But Apple doesn't sell budget hardware and you'll never get a Mac for $350, so people are willing to put up with all kinds of crap because it's all about the money. Lala was great, too - I absolutely loved it. It's gone now. Regarding the second point, I don't know what to think. The Big Labels have learned that they need to downsize and do 360 deals to survive, and I believe they will. They can still put an artist out there that will sell 2 to 3 million albums. The crazy thing is that there is so much waste in the old school physical CD sales - So many people have to get paid, in addition to the manufacturing costs. But putting it online is borderline free. And with today's technology there's no reason to spend $300,000 making an album. So labels will be around, smaller and more practical and more online. And as long as there are labels there will be dedicated songwriters. But yeah, that whole scene can't possibly survive the way it is, like you said. And you have your finger on the pulse of that scene. Could be more songwriters move onto jingle writing. If they can stomach it, more power to them. But people are always looking for new good music. And there will always be a place for those who can write it. I have no idea what that place will look like. But I am pretty sure that getting out and performing music is always going to be viable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 12, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 12, 2011 Regarding the first point, money talks. Spotify is a big gamble. If it succeeds, eventually, then the investors will make a fortune. If it fails, the investors will lose their money. Happens all the time. I understand the point about users loving it. Mac users are the same way. I have never run antivirus software and never needed it. 90% of the world uses Windows and suffers through all kinds of adware, spyware, viruses, and all kinds of crap. I can't for the life of me understand why people put up with that. That's not all... the Windows OS is capable of blowing itself up with no help simply by installing apps that screw up the registry. There are tons of reasons why the Mac is better, there are usability studies that show it's easier to learn and use. I feel about the Mac the same way you feel about Spotify. But Apple doesn't sell budget hardware and you'll never get a Mac for $350, so people are willing to put up with all kinds of crap because it's all about the money. Lala was great, too - I absolutely loved it. It's gone now. Regarding the second point, I don't know what to think. The Big Labels have learned that they need to downsize and do 360 deals to survive, and I believe they will. They can still put an artist out there that will sell 2 to 3 million albums. The crazy thing is that there is so much waste in the old school physical CD sales - So many people have to get paid, in addition to the manufacturing costs. But putting it online is borderline free. And with today's technology there's no reason to spend $300,000 making an album. So labels will be around, smaller and more practical and more online. And as long as there are labels there will be dedicated songwriters. But yeah, that whole scene can't possibly survive the way it is, like you said. And you have your finger on the pulse of that scene. Could be more songwriters move onto jingle writing. If they can stomach it, more power to them. But people are always looking for new good music. And there will always be a place for those who can write it. I have no idea what that place will look like. But I am pretty sure that getting out and performing music is always going to be viable. Who can sell 2-3 million albums anymore? Taylor Swift..GAGA? Who else? Majors WILL survive..{censored}, they are BANKS!! However they will morph into what they need to to survive. The current Baby Boomer ranks in charge will be cashing out in the next 5 years and youngins will come in and change things to move them into the new world. Gonna happen.So hey...Let's continue this when everyone in this thread has used Spotify. Don't know when it's gonna launch but I have my email in for an invite. I suggest you all do so as well. It's WAY WAY WAY better than anything you have seen in this country with streaming..BY FAR. Use it then we'll continue this discourse because i'm very interested in all of your reactions after using it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted July 12, 2011 Members Share Posted July 12, 2011 So hey...Let's continue this when everyone in this thread has used Spotify. Don't know when it's gonna launch but I have my email in for an invite. I suggest you all do so as well. It's WAY WAY WAY better than anything you have seen in this country with streaming..BY FAR. Use it then we'll continue this discourse because I'm very interested in all of your reactions after using it Predicting the future is sort of an inexact science .... we'll see . What is a little more of a certainty is to observe history ( since it likes to repeat itself !) Before IP , there wasn't as much incentive to do stuff like right a book since every tom , dick or harry could exploit the rewards to. All the speculation we do on this forum is with too short a window in mind . I believe that the long term implications from this short period of history will show ( an re-affirm ) that folks won't bother to do what it really takes to create a work of art that can stand the test of time if there's no way to sustain themselves whilst they do it ....For your reading pleasure; exhibits one and two .... Business Matters: Spotify Might Predict 50 Million U.S. Subscribers, but Its Payouts Can Be Comically Small ... http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/industry/digital-and-mobile/business-matters-spotify-s-got-buzz-but-1005269392.storyWhen CONSUMERS and CREATORS are happy everyone in the middle will have gotten digital distribution rightIf we shaft the creators as the streaming services do ( and all the usuall straw man thrashing of the record company fat cat's and middlemen doesn't change the fact that the sole proprietor's ( like Richard; who shared how he is "striking it rich " :facepalm:with streaming royalty's!!) are not being renumerated , just insulted . Is the future of music in the clouds ??http://www.musicthinktank.com/blog/is-the-future-of-music-in-the-clouds.html"music as water":rolleyes: You do get what you pay for !. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted July 12, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 12, 2011 I just don't see it because if anyone has tried spotify which of all of us, I think i'm the only one in this thread who has used it, they will see that it's {censored}ing awesome! Unfortunately, the way things are looking, the rest of us poor stateside-bound folks will never get a chance to try it out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members [Animals2] Posted July 12, 2011 Members Share Posted July 12, 2011 Who can sell 2-3 million albums anymore? Taylor Swift..GAGA? Who else? Majors WILL survive..{censored}, they are BANKS!! However they will morph into what they need to to survive. The current Baby Boomer ranks in charge will be cashing out in the next 5 years and youngins will come in and change things to move them into the new world. Gonna happen. So hey...Let's continue this when everyone in this thread has used Spotify. Don't know when it's gonna launch but I have my email in for an invite. I suggest you all do so as well. It's WAY WAY WAY better than anything you have seen in this country with streaming..BY FAR. Use it then we'll continue this discourse because i'm very interested in all of your reactions after using it Other than not being free, how does Spotify differ from Rhapsody? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 12, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 12, 2011 We'll see boys....We shall see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted July 13, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 13, 2011 I think the concept behind Spotify is great, and I would likely take advantage of it if it were available... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted July 13, 2011 Author Members Share Posted July 13, 2011 It's so good there is NO NEED to pirate anything. Basically almost everything you could ever want is available on demand at your fingertips:) Why bother pirating and eating up your HD space? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Poker99 Posted July 13, 2011 Members Share Posted July 13, 2011 I I'm waiting for that day because everyone I talk to is sick of the manufactured bull{censored} they put out and the only reason it sells anything is the Multi-million dollar marketing they put behind this {censored}..We're all frankly sick of seeing time and time again the worst person on stage in all respects, being the signed one. The days of {censored} are coming to an end. Ya better be good or people will move on. There's just too much good..I honestly believe it's going to have to go back to real talent, real good {censored}ing songs with real good artists who can sing and play. I think you're just getting older. Its nothing new, its just worse now. Why is it worse? Well to me the answer is quite simple ; Labels invest in what is an easy, quick sell. They do not invest long term in bands/artists like they used too, and that means these artists don't have the time to flourish as much. We are left with more pop fads that make quick easy money for a little while. Rinse and repeat. Its been years since I hear how this 'revolution' of the 'talent' is supposed to come because of the internet and the new "fair playing field" which fan demand controls everything. Guess what... "Most people wouldn't know good music if it came up and bit them in the ass." - Frank Zappa The average music fan need a total package which relate to them and captures their 15 second attention span by being everywhere. Once you get their attention THEN they will decide if they like you or not. That's why Lady Gaga, Perry and all the other pop/rap is popular... The teen girls want to be Perry and the teen boys want to DO her, and its catchy, easy music. I honestly believe it's going to have to go back to real talent, real good {censored}ing songs with real good artists who can sing and play. Call me the optimist and yes I may be in the minority but EVERYONE I know and respect who is at the level i'm at full time in this business, and has the level of experience and knowledge I have, feels the same way as me. Who are these people? Artists? Musicians and artists are the worst at analysing the music business... Because they give music too much importance, because they want to believe the average music fan sees music like they do, and most of all because they want to succeed. Music fans just want to have something cool to listen too. IF that thing has big boobs its even better. If you ask kids today about their music I would guess most of them think it rules, and that Gaga and Perry are the greatest thing ever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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