Hey Mr. O'Keefe....or others

[daklander]

Now that I have the Otari MX-5050 in my possession I have a couple of questions.

 

First off, it lights up, and the output works. I threw on a recorded 7" tape and plugged in headphones. It's chipmonk for sure at double the speed that tape was recorded at but the playback side definitely works. I'll check the recording side of it this weekend.

What a great gift. It came with a very nice rollabout cart that has an adjustable feature so I can set the angle of the recorder as I need, and it has a tray built into the cart that will carry my little mixer just fine.

 

1) Since this is normally set up at 7 or 15 ips but can be changed to 3.75 or 7 ips, for my general use, is it reasonable to do that or should I just suck it up and use the 7 ips setting?

2) Do you happen to have an owner's manual for it? If so, can I copy it?

3) Do you have the remote control for it? If so, can I copy it too? a schematic drawing would be ok.

A reminder, I have somewhere around 2 dozen 7" reels of tape, most that was of reasonably high quality when purchased. I know I need to bake them and that is on my agenda. I have what I'll need to build an oven.

4) Will those work for the short term until I can pick up some 10" reels of tape as well as a take up reel?

5) When I purchase the 10" tape, what mil should I realistically look at. Again finguring in my usage. Will 1 mil be enough? What's standard in 10"?

 

Thanks in advance for any information you can send my way.

[offramp]

All I can offer is: use the highest speed available for your machine. 10" reels? Get 'em. Whatever it takes. Ampex 456? Buy it (if they even make it anymore). Whatever is the modern-day equivalent of 456...get it. Run that machine at the highest speed.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by daklander Now that I have the Otari MX-5050 in my possession I have a couple of questions. 1) Since this is normally set up at 7 or 15 ips but can be changed to 3.75 or 7 ips, for my general use, is it reasonable to do that or should I just suck it up and use the 7 ips setting? Suck it up and use the 15 IPS setting. Seriously, if you want the best sound, stick to 15 IPS... and if you have to conserve tape, use the 7.5 IPS... but only as a last resort. 2) Do you happen to have an owner's manual for it? If so, can I copy it? No I don't. But I do have a manual for the MX5050 SD8, which was the earliest 8 track (two piece) version of the MX. IIRC, I have the service manual for that too, and it covers the other models in the series. Comes in a red binder. I'll have to dig it out, but if you want to copy it, I don't THINK that's an issue anymore. Is Otari still around? Do they even sell those anymore? My only concern would be violating their copyright. Let me check on that and get back to you. 3) Do you have the remote control for it? If so, can I copy it too? a schematic drawing would be ok. I may have a schematic for the wired remote. Gotta check on that too. I don't own a remote unit for it. A reminder, I have somewhere around 2 dozen 7" reels of tape, most that was of reasonably high quality when purchased. I know I need to bake them and that is on my agenda. I have what I'll need to build an oven. I use an old convection oven. And yes, IIRC, the MX5050 IIb (the model I have) can use 7" and 10" reels with the correct hub adapters. But I never bother with anything other than 10" and NAB hubs. 4) Will those work for the short term until I can pick up some 10" reels of tape as well as a take up reel? The machine was free - splurge a little and get the 10" and stick to that. But yes, I believe you should be okay running 7" reels, although again, I never do. 5) When I purchase the 10" tape, what mil should I realistically look at. Again finguring in my usage. Will 1 mil be enough? What's standard in 10"? That machine was designed for Ampex / Quantegy 456, which is 1.5 mil. Thanks in advance for any information you can send my way. First thing I'd do is take it to a good tech and have them do a alignment and bias job and complete checkup.. but if you want to forgo that, get a take up reel and a 10" reel of 456 and see how she does. Congrats on the cool score Dak. And big props to Ms Valky for hooking you and Gearmike up!

[Brittanylips]

I'd hold off on the baking if I were you.

 

Baking is really best used for resuscitating a treasured tape that has already been recorded, but no longer works.

 

I would never bake a new tape in order to record new material.

 

If you must bake, better to bake a cake in the meantime and eat it while waiting for new good stock to arrive.

 

-Peace, Love, and Brittanylips

[daklander]

Thanks for the info Phil, I figured you'd say that.

Otari is still around, at least their website is and it has contact info on it so I sent out an email with some questions and requests. We'll see how responsive they are. The US Sales location is in Chatsworth.

 

Brittanylips, these tapes I'm talking about baking are 30 year old tapes with music on them. I figure I'll bake 'em so I can get off of them what I want, using my TEAC 2300S and, until I pick up the 10" tape and reels, use some for test recordings to learn the machine. I don't think I want to gum up the works with those old tapes without baking them.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Dak, have you baked tape before? Know the "formula"?

 

Personally, I never bake unless I know there's a sticky tape issue. I've seen plenty of 30 year old tape that (if it was stored half way decently and wasn't from a few "known bad brand / batch periods" - ala mid 80's Ampex) played back just fine.

 

And I have a suggestion for you for when you do play those old tapes back... mult the output from your TEAC to both the Otari and to your computer. That way you can make a (second generation) analog copy as well as a digital copy of the tapes with just a single playback.

 

Make a clone of the digital version and save the two copies to two different forms of media. I personally prefer a removeable HDD and a DVD-R, but the important thing is to have TWO copies for the archive. That, plus the analog copy should give you pretty good odds at being able to retrieve it again in another 30 years.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Oh, and one more thing: I've baked tapes and then had to rebake them again a few years later because the sticky tape issue returned and the client lost the original backups. IOW, a baked tape can USUALLY be "rebaked" again without significant degradation later if need be... but IMO, you should make every attempt to "get it right" the first time around.

[daklander]

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe Dak, have you baked tape before? Know the "formula"? Never baked before but I've read enough about it to be able to do it, as well as build a baking oven if needed. Personally, I never bake unless I know there's a sticky tape issue. I've seen plenty of 30 year old tape that (if it was stored half way decently and wasn't from a few "known bad brand / batch periods" - ala mid 80's Ampex) played back just fine. I have to check all the tapes Phil. I know some are cheap tape that will need baking but there are going to be others that don't. I'll use the TEAC to check those out, as well as visual and feel. All these tapes are from the late '60s to early '70s. And I have a suggestion for you for when you do play those old tapes back... mult the output from your TEAC to both the Otari and to your computer. That way you can make a (second generation) analog copy as well as a digital copy of the tapes with just a single playback. Great Idea. Make a clone of the digital version and save the two copies to two different forms of media. I personally prefer a removeable HDD and a DVD-R, but the important thing is to have TWO copies for the archive. That, plus the analog copy should give you pretty good odds at being able to retrieve it again in another 30 years. It's going to be a long project. There is quite alot that I won't really want to keep, as a whole, but will have to check snippets and grab what I want. I mean, I have one reel that is all Roberta Flack, three hours I'd guess and probably only 4 or 5 songs I'd want to keep. Same goes with lots of the tapes.

[Brittanylips]

Originally posted by daklander these tapes I'm talking about baking are 30 year old tapes with music on them.

My misunderstanding.

 

So, to paraphrase KC and the Sunshine Band:

 

Bake Bake Bake

Bake Bake Bake

 

Bake your booty.

Bake your booty.

 

Bake Bake Bake

Bake Bake Bake

 

Bake your booty...

 

 

-PL&B

[kylen]

What type oven are youse guys using for baking - I need to do this too and have studied up on the subject a small bit, will do more right before melting down history...

[Phil O'Keefe]

Convection oven. DO NOT try to use a gas fired kitchen oven - they give off moisture as part of the combustion process, and moisture is what you're trying to REMOVE...

 

Eddie Ciletti has a good tutorial on his site if I recall correctly... and since I'm in a session (and have to get back RSN) here's a link that will save me some time / typing:

 

http://www.tangible-technology.com/

 

WATCH THAT MAX TEMPERATURE!

 

More later...

[daklander]

Yeah, Kyle, convection. You can use a food drier too, or build one. For the ones I'll need to do I'll build one using a shaded lamp and I have a small battery operated fan to circulate the air. I'll just have to do some experimentation to get the wattage and distance of the lamp right to keep the temperature as stable as possible around 125 to 130.

 

Here are three sites I found with information.

 

Master Digital Analog Tape

 

Josephson Bake Tape Info

 

Radio College Reading Room

 

There were others but these three seemd to give concise information. Run a Google search for "bake tape" for more sites.

 

So far I've started visually and tactilely checking the tapes, starting with the Ampex. Those should be ok and the two I checked so far are going to be ok. One is junk music so it's a prime candidate for recording test. The second one is prime for saving. The Doobie Brothers' "Toulouse Street" and Long John Baldry's "It Ain't Easy", with "Joplin in Concert" and Fanny Hill on the tape also.

 

Phil, that is a good site also. The direct link to the article is Right Here.. It was one of the other sites I found via Google.

Once I dug the tapes out and looked, most are 1 mil tapes with some 1.5 mil.

The majority of the tape is Ampex 341 with some Scotch and RCA with a couple of cheap Shamrock tapes. If the rest of the Ampex tape is like the first couple I checked I won't have to do anything with them except copy what I want off the tapes onto the new 10" media when I get it, along with hard drive and CD. I'll have to double check but the burner in my laptop may be a dvd burner too. That would probably be even better.

If that holds true I'll have fewer than a dozen reels to bake, depending on the other brands. I do know that some will need baking because of the sticky that transfered when I tried a couple of reels some time ago that are in a generic case so I don't know what brand they are.

Any tips you have Phil, will be heeded so feel free to impart your knowledge.

 

 

 

 

Oh, I still have a couple of my splicers though the leader and trailer material is nowhere to be found.

 

 

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by daklander Yeah, Kyle , convection. You can use a food drier too, I've seen a modified Ronco food dehydrator that could hold multiple reels. Worked fine too. ... or build one. For the ones I'll need to do I'll build one using a shaded lamp and I have a small battery operated fan to circulate the air. I'll just have to do some experimentation to get the wattage and distance of the lamp right to keep the temperature as stable as possible around 125 to 130. I run at 130 most of the time. And yes, you can "McGyver" one together with stuff you probably already have around the house - a cardboard box, some sissors, some duct tape (natch ), a hair dryer or bright lightbulb... heck, even a kid's EZ Bake oven can be modified to work. But you need that thermometer so you can watch the temperature... that's very important. And you want even distribution of warm air, with no hot or cold spots. But (and no, I don't own any financial interests in any, so I have nothing to profit from by saying this) you can go to a local thrift store and just buy a convection oven for next to nothing. Mine was given to me years ago (thanks Grandma! ), but I've seen 'em in thrift stores for $15-$20. Here are three sites I found with information. Master Digital Analog Tape Josephson Bake Tape Info Radio College Reading Room There were others but these three seemd to give concise information. Run a Google search for "bake tape" for more sites. Good of you to post those Dak! I'll go take a look as soon as I finish this post. So far I've started visually and tactilely checking the tapes, starting with the Ampex. Those should be ok and the two I check so far are going to be ok. One is junk so it's a prime candidate for recording test. I hope it's not TOO "junk", or it might give you an inaccurate "diagnosis" of the old girl's (all tape decks are female, don't ask... ) sonic condition. The second one is prime for saving. The Doobie Brothers' "Toulouse Street" and Long John Baldry's "It Ain't Easy", with "Joplin in Concert" and Fanny Hill on the tape also. Sounds like you have some cool stuff Dak. Phil, that is a good site also. The direct link to the article is Right Here. . It was one of the other sites I found via Google. It's been a while, but I've read Eddie's write up, and knew it was a good / safe one, so I thought I'd better put SOMETHING up... just in case you were in a hurry. Once I dug the tapes out and looked, most are 1 mil tapes with some 1.5 mil. The majority of the tape is Ampex 341 with some Scotch and RCA with a couple of cheap Shamrock tapes. If the rest of the Ampex tape is like the first couple I checked I won't have to do anything with them except copy what I want off the tapes onto the new 10" media when I get it, along with hard drive and CD. I'll have to double check but the burner in my laptop may be a dvd burner too. That would probably be even better. It will certainly hold more data per disk. As far as the 1 mil vs 1.5 mil tape, that hopefully won't be a problem either Dak. If you had a machine that was designed for 1 mil and tried to run 1.5 on it, you might run into some issues with the motors not being able to keep up with the extra weight. But the MX5050 is a lot beefier than that and was designed for professional, 1.5 mil tape. if you stick a decent leader on the front of those 1 mil tapes (enough to get the reel mounted and threaded on the machine and a few seconds extra for good measure), you can fire the tape up into playing and put the stress on the leader tape and not the magnetic tape itself. The bigger issue you might run into is the idler wheel / puck (pinch roller) interaction. If it's not set up right, it might not properly feed that thinner tape. If that holds true I'll have fewer than a dozen reels to bake, depending on the other brands. I do know that some will need baking because of the sticky that transfered when I tried a couple of reels some time ago that are in a generic case so I don't know what brand they are. Any tips you have Phil , will be heeded so feel free to impart your knowledge. The worse the gunk, the longer I bake. For every hour I bake, I allow an hour of cool down time before playing it. I bake at 130 degrees, and I don't go for less than two hours (usually 4 for badly shedding tapes) on 1/4" tape. With 1/2", 1" and 2" tape, you'll want to stretch that out to at least 4 hours, with 6-8 being likely for tapes that are really broken down. I prefer going towards the lower end of most people's recommended temp ranges, and go a tad longer than they recommend on the times. To my ears, and I freely admit I could just be imagining this, it's a little "gentler" on the tape insofar as the high frequencies go... although it's hard to do direct comparisons on the exact same piece of tape. But I have done tapes from the same batch, and they seem to come out better when cooked a little cooler, but for a longer time period. YMMDVOT, but most people do agree that going too hot can lead to print through issues, so if for no other reason than that, I tend to play it safe on the max temp. You know, I just remembered posting something about this topic over on Musicplayer... yeah, here's a link. I described my methods in depth. Oh, I still have a couple of my splicers though the leader and trailer material is nowhere to be found. "Splicing blocks", "leader tape" and "splicing tape" and "razor blades". And talking about that stuff makes me feel pretty old buddy. You can get that stuff at a lot of places. Do a Google search for "analog tape editing supplies" if you want to order online, or check with your local Guitar Center or even Radio Shack. The razor blades you can get at the local hardware store. One BIG caveat: I've never baked anything that wasn't on metal NAB hubs, so I have no idea about plastic reels and if / how well they would hold up under the heat. If any of your tapes are on plastic reels, I'd recommend transfering them to metal reels or, if you decide to try it anyway on the plastic reels, proceed with extreme caution and watch / check on them even more frequently! Plastic reels would be something I'd personally avoid baking. Finally, speaking of checking on things, I check every few minutes until I know the temp is stable (pre-heating the oven definitely helps), and once they're baking well, I flip the tapes every 30 minutes, and I rotate them 1/4 turn too. Use an old oven mitt or pot holder. And finally, a kitchen timer or watch alarm is handy for reminding you when it's time to check / flip the tape. If I had the time Dak, I'd offer to do it for you... but I'm just too swamped right now.

[daklander]

Thanks for the thoughts, and the offer Phil, but this is a project I'm looking forward to getting involved in. It's been years since I did any in depth open reel recording. I used to have some pretty good machines, not commercial, but good machines non the less. In my last years of service and after my discharge I had Roberts and Ampex machines with sound on sound, sound with sound & etc. capabilities and used to work that for different effects. Though this machine doesn't look like it can do that it's still going to be cool to record to tape again, with a machine that's going to do a better job than the TEAC I have.

 

The junk tape is actually ok. It's the music on the tape that's junk, or most of it is anyway. It's a tape I apparently recorded live radio onto, plugging in and hitting record so there's music, gab & all that normal fm radio chatter.

 

As far as the plastic reels, and all the tape is on plastic reels, there should be no problems with baking. Everything I read about tells me that it's going to be just fine at the temperatures I'm looking to use, which will be in the 120 to 135 degree range. My aim is to get as close to 125 to 130 degrees as I can so I'll have a bit of wiggle room if the thermometer happens to be off a bit.

 

Some of the music is going to be keeper and pretty cool yes, but some is going to be pretty awful.

 

A sampling of it, of course Beatles, Creedence, Procol Harem, Cream, Airplane, Stones, Beach Boys, Animals, Who, Guess Who & etc...

Rascals

We Five

Zombies

Buckinghams

First Edition

Duster Bennett

Juicy Lucy

Rumplestiltskin

Turtles

Herman's Hermits

Happenings

Plastic Ono Band

[gearmike]

 

Originally posted by daklander Oh, I still have a couple of my splicers though the leader and trailer material is nowhere to be found.

 

 

 

Ha Ha!

 

Valky gave me a whole reel of leader tape!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But I'll probably never use it...

 

I'm gonna use my tape deck mainly as an effect processor...

 

 

 

Want it?

[daklander]

 

Originally posted by gearmike Ha Ha! Valky gave me a whole reel of leader tape! But I'll probably never use it... I'm gonna use my tape deck mainly as an effect processor... Want it?

 

 

Does a wild polar bear {censored} in the snow?

Yeah, if you're not going to use it I will. We'll work something out when we can. Thanks for the offer.

[valkyriesound]

Hah!

 

Yeah.. but DAK got the newer model machine....

 

Valky

[gearmike]

Originally posted by valkyriesound Hah! Yeah.. but DAK got the newer model machine.... Valky

 

 

I had a feeling you liked Dak better!

[daklander]

Originally posted by gearmike I had a feeling you liked Dak better!

 

Heh. That's 'cause I'm better lookin' & I can't wait until tomorrow.

[daklander]

Update...

Left mic channel is out, right channel is good. Haven't had a chance to dig out the line input cables yet so don't know there.

 

This has four heads and a 2T/4T switch.

 

Phil, what's up with that? The literature I've been able to find hasn't told me anything.

 

The heads look good to me with little wear. Looks like it just needs a good cleaning of the heads, capstans and guides.

 

 

On this last pic, on the right side capstan & pinch roller there is another guide to the right. Which side of that guide should the tape go? I would presume backside (non-coated) to the guide.

[kptkarl]

Eddie Cileti would be a good resource of info on analog tape machine info and baking. his site

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by daklander Update... Left mic channel is out, right channel is good. Haven't had a chance to dig out the line input cables yet so don't know there. I'm not wild about the mic preamps, but YMMV. As long as the line level I/O works, I'd be very happy in your shoes. This has four heads and a 2T/4T switch. Phil, what's up with that? The literature I've been able to find hasn't told me anything. That's the four track playback head I was talking about Dak. Remember, the MX5050 is a HALF TRACK machine, where each of the two tracks it records covers approximately 1/2 of the total tape width. However, many consumer tape decks use a quarter track format, with two tracks in each direction of tape travel, and where you flip the reels to play "side two". The MX5050 can not record in that format, but it can play back pre-recorded tapes that are in that format... just set the switch to the "4T" setting for that. For recording on the MX5050, and for playing back tapes that were recorded on it, use the "2T" setting on that switch. The heads look good to me with little wear. Looks like it just needs a good cleaning of the heads, capstans and guides. It's really kind of hard to tell from the pictures Dak. Don't forget to degauss the tape path and heads Dak. You have a degausser and know how to use it, right? If not, please let me know. Oh, and what are you planning on using to clean the puck and the heads? PURE isopropryl alcohol is fine for the heads, but will dry out the puck... 409 can work on that in a pinch. On this last pic, on the right side capstan & pinch roller there is another guide to the right. Which side of that guide should the tape go? I would presume backside (non-coated) to the guide. Correct. And then the oxide side goes aganst the swing arm just to the right of that, then on up to the take up reel.

[daklander]

Thanks Phil, that clarifies what I thought I understood you to say earlier about the half track and the 2T/4T situation.

I appreciate the confirmation about that extra guide too. The tensioner was not a problem, nor was the feed side routing, just that one guide.

 

I have what it takes to clean the heads but will have to pickup up a cleaner for the pinch rollers unless I can find my other tape stuff that had cleaner in it made for the rollers. I think the degausser was in there too but if not I'll have to get another one & Yeah, I've used 'em pleanty in the past. The biggest degausser I've used was the one that degaussed the ship I was on. We did that once while I was on it, fairly early in my tour but never again. The determined it was no longer needed, degaussing that is.

 

I hope to have the time this week to check out the line ins. I'm not going to fret over the mic ins but at some later date will check that out to see if it's something simple or wait until I can sent the unit if or a repair and check over by a tech.

 

Thanks again for the help Phil.

[gearmike]

For some reason my Line Ins don't work at all. But the Mic ins do, and they take line level signal just fine...

 

Weird:p

[daklander]

 

Originally posted by gearmike For some reason my Line Ins don't work at all. But the Mic ins do, and they take line level signal just fine... Weird:p

 

 

It is weird but it may have something to do with the switch on the back that controls the input level on the mic ins. If it's turned off it may allow line level with no problems or distortion.

Just a guess...