Violin / Fiddle Micing

[digwhisper]

I'm helping out a friend with a little demo project and she does the modern country kind of stuff. I need to record some violin or fiddle parts.

 

Any tips on mic choice or placement? Any other hints, I'm a rock guy by nature and haven't ever recorded one.

[MorePaul]

www.fiddleforum.com

 

is bowed instrument specific community and can help ya!

[where02190]

Not only do I record alot of fiddle/violin, I'm also a player. (Most recently I did a CD of traditional irish dance with Ellery Klein of Gaelic Storm )

 

My fiddle mic of choice is an AT 4041, which is a SDC. SM81's, Octavia 012's, etc., also work well.

 

Room is crutial, too dry and the fiddle sounds lifeless, too wet and it lacks focus. Wood is your friend.

 

Please the mic 3-4 feet (yes feet) above the player, in front of them so the stand sits to their right, pointing the mic at the player more than the instrument. This puts the mic well out of bow range, allowing the player all the freedom of movement they need.

 

Don't bother to attempt anything stereo, the player will move around in the field far too much.

 

When mixing, roll off a touch of top end above 8khz, the bottom from 100hz down, and give a light push around 250hz if you want a warmer tone. I recommend against any compression, but if you must, be gentle.

[digwhisper]

Thanks for the replies! My gut was telling me to mic it similiar to an acoustic guitar but I wasn't feeling very confident. Thanks!

[C JoGo]

 

Originally posted by where02190 Not only do I record alot of fiddle/violin, I'm also a player. (Most recently I did a CD of traditional irish dance with Ellery Klein of Gaelic Storm ) My fiddle mic of choice is an AT 4041, which is a SDC. SM81's, Octavia 012's, etc., also work well. Room is crutial, too dry and the fiddle sounds lifeless, too wet and it lacks focus. Wood is your friend. Please the mic 3-4 feet (yes feet) above the player, in front of them so the stand sits to their right, pointing the mic at the player more than the instrument. This puts the mic well out of bow range, allowing the player all the freedom of movement they need. Don't bother to attempt anything stereo, the player will move around in the field far too much. When mixing, roll off a touch of top end above 8khz, the bottom from 100hz down, and give a light push around 250hz if you want a warmer tone. I recommend against any compression, but if you must, be gentle.

 

 

Didn't know you where a player:eek:

 

Thanks for the tips:thu: --I am recording more & more violin/fiddle these days...

 

My neighbors band

MOLLYS REVENGE

[where02190]

Yes, for a few years now, sort of by default. I had a few years back been writing and recording some countryish stuff with others, and really needed some fiddle lines on it, nothing fancy, just some basic double stop country licks. Well, after frustration wore me out trying to find anyone decent to do it that wasn't going to cost a fortune, I decided to find a good instructor (which I did) get a decent fiddle (which I now have 3) and learn to play. Since I already played guitar and have a fairly indepth education in music, I gave it a shot. I quickly discovered I indeed do have a feel for the instrument, and was able in a few months to develop my level of playing to do the tracks I needed.

 

Now I won't be pimping myself out as a fiddler really, but I've played on my share of tracks here that came about from a "gee some fiddle on this part would be kewl" comment from a bandmember, and I would mention that I do play a bit of fiddle....

[Dave Martin]

My personal choice for fiddle is a Gefell M582 with an M94 capsule. I've used the M62 capsule, and it seems to work OK, but is a little bright for my taste. I tend to put the mic about a foot above the instrument, and don't eq it.

[Phil O'Keefe]

I still like ribbon mics on fiddle. Usually it's a Beyer M160 that I use. I find it tends to "smooth off the edges" of the sound a little bit. Distance and placement depends on what we're looking for, but IMO, Where's and Dave's suggestions are good starting points.

[C JoGo]

I have had more experience with the classical violinsts-> were they control their movements --play from shoulder, perfectly tuned, quality instruments, etc. Using a NT3 above the player and a Ntk for the room.

 

But now I have been lately recording the true Appalachian fiddler--were they play from the hip and even go, as far as, wood-grained plastic instruments.

 

So trying to find a different appproach for micingCRIPPLE CRICK

[scapier]

Well, I have to put my 25 cents in here:

 

There are several approaches to recording the violin depending on the kind of track you are looking for. Are you wanting the violin to cut through the mix on a country album, competing with electric guitars, and a rhythm section? Is the violin player comfortable in the studio? I would suggest a large mic diaphragm mic above and in front of the bridge, anywhere from four feet to six inches. That's right I said inches. The closer you get the more present the sound will be. Is it accurate? Nope, but it sounds more fiddly the closer you get. It's a matter of palate. For a bit more core I suggest taking a pencil mic, brighter is better, so a 451 or an octava etc and place it under the fiddle as close as the player will allow between the fiddle and the inside of the player's elbow. Lot of great frequencies under there to complement the top mic. Check phase of course. My favourite fiddle sound for country and rock involves the Lawson L47 going through an Avalon 737. Bright and present. Don't dial out the top end stuff till you hear it in the mix. You might find you can eq a violin much as you would a voice, btw. For more natural sound try a more open mic and a warmer pre.

 

My go-to is the Martech for a bigger sound, but for a nice warm sound try a trasformer, and John Hardy is great. I don't own all of these, but I've done lots of recording with violin and if there's a choice this is what I do! Compression is not too necessary depending on the part, but be gentle at any rate.

 

If the person moves around a lot, try figure eight or omni, and it won't make too much difference. fiddle fills a room and if it's a nice one try to capture that.

 

Don't try to play fiddle with other instruments in the same room. Your mixing options will be tricky after the fact.

 

If you have a low ceiling have the player sit down. There needs to be considerable headroom above the violin for it to sound right.

 

Give the player more open sounding headphones than you might be comfortable with. Pitch is a tricky thing with string players and they are used to hearing it from a specific direction and location. Headphones are likely going to throw that pitch off if they aren't used to the studio. They won't know why either. Suggest they take the left pot half off the ear if they're having trouble.

 

Give them things in the mix with strong tonal centres. Distorted guitars, didgeridoo patches and steel guitars aren't helpful, nor are things like clarinets and flutes which are pitched sharper up the scale. Piano and acoustic guitar in the forfront, vocals to mesh with as well. Don't ask them to play as well as the string patch you were working with before (in case you were:>) ) !! The last several tips I got from Ben Mink, who is a fiddler extraordinaire and producer of many kd lang albums. Thirty minutes on the phone with him here in Vancouver saved my butt on the second trip I made to Nashville to do an album. The first trip I didn't know some of the stuff I'm telling you now and it was a disaster. That's a long tale for another email.

 

Violin and female vocal is often a problem to reconcile. The trick is stay well above or below the octave she's singing at. It's to do with formant or something. It's also the reason I think Allison Kraus plays viola not violin. In fact if the player has access to a viola make them bring it along. It gets right out the way of the female vocal tone and still gets the job done. It's the same problem btw that drummers have with female vocals and snare drums, or so I've heard.

 

 

Okay, I've yammered on a bit too long, hope this was helpful.

 

Spencer Capier

[where02190]

Phones, yes I forgot the issues with monitoring. Crutial is that the phones are thin at the ears, and not too weighty. Sony 7506's work very well, as you can fold back one ear, which is IMHO mandatory for a fiddler, they cannot play with the left ear covered, it needs to hear and feel the tone of the fiddle.

 

I've often tracked using wedges or small speakers, inverting the phase on them, and positioning for minimal bleed. I find this method yields far less bleed than the phones will no matter what phones you use. A fiddle is a damn loud instrument, and next to your ears, it requires some level to hear what you're playing to. However good bass tones can really help the player, and add little to the bleed issues, they can easily be filtered and cancelled out without affecting the tone of the fiddle.

 

IMHO you'll find very little tones under a filddle, the players arm is acting as a baffle. Overhead height is crutial however, and more is better.

[Dave Martin]

 

Originally posted by where02190 Phones, yes I forgot the issues with monitoring. Crutial is that the phones are thin at the ears, and not too weighty. Sony 7506's work very well, as you can fold back one ear, which is IMHO mandatory for a fiddler, they cannot play with the left ear covered, it needs to hear and feel the tone of the fiddle.

 

 

I'm trying to be argumentative, but none of the fiddle players I work with wear only one earphone (All are full time session players). And only one will wear 7506's (the standard phones in my room); the rest want something like Fostex T20's, which are not nearly as bright as the Sonys.

[scapier]

Actually I never cover up my left ear anymore either. I started using these Quartz headphones at first, with great midrange, and very open. These were great for hearing pitch but the engineers hated them for the bleed. Now I guess I'm just used to hearing my sound from the mic and prefer using the basic akgs. In fact I think it's better to hear exactly what the mic hears for the right tone and such. It took a lot of sessions to get me used to not fidgeting with my left headphone t though.

 

What fiddle players have you worked with in Nashville? I really hate the fostex's just to be argumentative. They sound so boxey!

 

Spencer

[C JoGo]

...Been using the Shure E2 earbuds for the fiddle ..give them a chance to hear the room and monitor >> also have the X- Dream wireless

 

The only Nashville fiddler I played with was Vassar Clemens

[scapier]

The only Nashville fiddler I played with was Vassar Clemens

 

Geeze, is that all?!?!?! That must have been quite a session....

 

Spencer

[where02190]

Yup we've had many fiddlers use their IEM's in one ear when tracking here also.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by scapier What fiddle players have you worked with in Nashville? I really hate the fostex's just to be argumentative. They sound so boxey! Spencer

 

Wanda Vick, Jonathan Yudkin, Andy Leftwich, Hoot Hester, Kenny Sears, David Russell, a number of others. Those come to mind as folks I've worked with in the last couple of years. Farther back, Larry Franklin, Buddy Spicher, Glen Duncan, and Vassar.

 

And it's not that the Fostex phones are boxy, it's just that they have a lot less high end (which fiddle players seem to appreciate; I guess the sound of a fiddle annoys them as much as it does the rest of us )

[C JoGo]

 

Originally posted by scapier The only Nashville fiddler I played with was Vassar Clemens

 

 

Geeze, is that all?!?!?! That must have been quite a session....

 

Spencer

 

Actually a live performance --we opened for whatever band he was touring with ...

[C JoGo]

Originally posted by where02190 Yup we've had many fiddlers use their IEM's in one ear when tracking here also.

 

the X Dream are surprisingly quiet and not too bright > for a wireless. The fiddlers seem to like the non-restrictive : wireless set-up:cool:

 

I still llike the AKG ...a great inexpensive , decent quality phone >>> KOSS UR -30

 

Have to admit the Behringer $7 HPM 1000 are unusable.

[MorePaul]

you guys ever see that yo yo ma vid where we covers recording into a "virtual space"?

 

During that even he is sort of amazed at how much different his motion of around 1/4" -1/2" in fron to the mic makes

 

it's a cool vid (as is the whole "visual classics" collection if you get a chance")

 

a pal o mine showed me the cellist budget IEM (I suppose for intonation as opposed to timbre)...his tuning peg! (he was showing me how before a passage you can kind of caibrate intonation by earing the tuning peg and hamering the string touchstyle)

 

yes, this doesnt really add much to the convo, but I thought it was kind of interesting

 

Additional : just pulled the vid out...it's "The Sound of the Carceri "

 

 

[where02190]

 

Have to admit the Behringer $7 HPM 1000 are unusable.

 

 

Why does that not suprise me.

[C JoGo]

My first unhappy purchase from a Behringer product,,,,but it they were new for $7...they did fit some young teenagers that were in last week >. gave them away

[GZsound]

 

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe I still like ribbon mics on fiddle. Usually it's a Beyer M160 that I use. I find it tends to "smooth off the edges" of the sound a little bit. Distance and placement depends on what we're looking for, but IMO, Where's and Dave's suggestions are good starting points.

 

 

I have had excellent results with my Beyer M260 on fiddle. Warm and nice. I do a LOT of bluegrass fiddle recording.

[Han]

 

Originally posted by GZsound I have had excellent results with my Beyer M260 on fiddle. Warm and nice. I do a LOT of bluegrass fiddle recording.

 

 

Absolutely agreed, with brother Phil as well, the Beyer M160 and M260 are some brighter sounding ribbons and are almost perfect mics for violin. Placement isn't very critical as well.

 

The AKG C451/CK1 didn't make me happy at all on violin. I noticed someone used an NT3 which must be very bright on violin.

 

Neumann M149 can work great on violin too.

[Binkeys]

Has anyone here used a Blue Baby Bottle on violin/fiddle?