Members sventvkg Posted March 24, 2011 Members Share Posted March 24, 2011 BTW, none of that was said with Malice. I'm just very blunt and straightforward when it comes to a discourse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 BTW, none of that was said with Malice. I'm just very blunt and straightforward when it comes to a discourse. Which is why I lubs ya so much! In a masculine manly man way, of course..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 LOL Our types can sniff each other out and usually get along swimmingly! No time for bull{censored}. I've never had time for it and thus have been labeled an asshole more than once because of it. Oh well. ) BYW, I love you too man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted March 25, 2011 Moderators Share Posted March 25, 2011 The thing here is that this scaled back approach to gigging, playing house concerts, etc. is keyed into the solo performers. This pretty much would not support a band, and requires the performer to wear many hats.. By the same token, there is a level of intimacy and availability, there. But this is not a path to stardom, or million unit sales...but it is a way for the solo performer to make a living, albeit a tight, demanding and risky one.If you get sick...you're done. Want a relationship with someone? Forget it, the demands of constant playing will obviate that. I don't know that this is a long term sustainable process: although there are people doing it, let us see how long they can keep doing it.I know several performers who did this type of approach briefly back in the 80s (Brewer and Shipley, for one, when they were 'off-label' ), playing essentially private shows for ~50 to 100 people, and obviously the only reason this worked for them back then was they were already a recognized name. I just think it is ultimately going to prove, in the long run, to be a dead end for 99.99% of the people doing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 The thing here is that this scaled back approach to gigging, playing house concerts, etc. is keyed into the solo performers. This pretty much would not support a band, and requires the performer to wear many hats.. By the same token, there is a level of intimacy and availability, there. But this is not a path to stardom, or million unit sales...but it is a way for the solo performer to make a living, albeit a tight, demanding and risky one.If you get sick...you're done. Want a relationship with someone? Forget it, the demands of constant playing will obviate that. I don't know that this is a long term sustainable process: although there are people doing it, let us see how long they can keep doing it.I know several performers who did this type of approach briefly back in the 80s (Brewer and Shipley, for one, when they were 'off-label' ), playing essentially private shows for ~50 to 100 people, and obviously the only reason this worked for them back then was they were already a recognized name. I just think it is ultimately going to prove, in the long run, to be a dead end for 99.99% of the people doing it. Th is is the way the majority of the artists coming up are doing it and if it's ultimately a dead end for 99.9% of musicians as you profess than it truly is the end of the music business and the world will be worse place for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 I challenge you. Come to Nashville and I will set you straight to you face I don't feel any malice either sventvkg , just sadness . I'm pretty sure that you are aware what an annoying habit it is to make proclamations and then never have the self discipline to take the trouble and try and back them up any factual documentation or even so much as a counter argument when questioned ..... It's more than blatantly obvious that when you tell myself and others that "we just don't get it" that what you are really saying is " I can't explain my theory or back it up in any convincing manner." And now you resort to bidding me to travel the width of the nation with the promise of enlightenment at the end of my significant journey ... It is easy to invite others to attempt to scale the mountain in order that they may benefit from the great guru's wisdom in person ! ( and it is also a pretty convenient piece of side stepping !) I will have to decline your invitation though . If inconvincing a few electrons here at the forum is a method that is to much trouble for you , I'm pretty sure that if I was graced by your physical presence , I would also probably learn precious little more from you in person than I have here at Harmony Central !!! Anyhow , best of luck ! cheers , I won't trouble you for any explanations of your statements anymore sventvkg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 Ya know what Finger. That's just not true man..I'm a pro musician and songwriter and I only got defensive because you think I'm a bull{censored}ter. I erased my diatribe here because it doesn't matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 I think that's an important sentiment that's should be expressed more often just like you expressed it -I do agree with that. It wasn't really much about the music. I mean, it was, but it wasn't. It was about the tangible, plastic, music-related products. It's so funny if you think about it - how many people grow up fantasizing about selling ten million coffee mugs, or pens, or snow globes or any other kind of consumer product? But that's what fantasizing about being a rock star was always about at the end of the day: Being the salesman for a company that sells little plastic things. . Well, I think you are missing the concept that buying a record (or 'little plastic thing" as you call it) is the mere act of purchasing a performance. And please let's not get semantic about "performance"....studio, live, whatever, the RECORDING is a recorded performance. It is just another way of selling a performance. And it was different before the 'little plasticf things'? Well.... If you look at history, the musicians have been pasing their non live music on since the days of the Gregorian Chants: since the dawn of music being written down. Beethoven and Mozart got paid comission by their respective governments to write music. Kind of an advance. Their government then owned a part of that music. One could not perform a Beethoven symphony without "consent" from the government of Austria. The government was kid of like a record company and the score was the product! Beethoven eventually sold the rights to all of his music to the very government that commissioned it because due to his deafness and blindness he could not earn a living doing performances. Sound familiar? A recording is a preserved performance (overdubs, samples are all a part of it). And the selling of it is not different than taking tickets at the door....so this idea that we are in some kind of vacuum that will somehow change the idea that a recording is the same as a live performance in the way that they both DELIVER music is kind of silly. Music is what is being delivered...on paper, on a tape, a cd, over the air waves, or in a computer file...it doesn't stop being music just because someone gets it for free... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 We should find out the best mixture of old and new ideas and put them together . And when he does that and says that going 'Micro" is the way to go, you get hardcore on the poor Nashvillian!.... I mean your statement above is pretty much what the whole music biz section of HC is all about, right? I mean {censored} is just changing at such a wacky pace.... And he is right...and I hate to use names around here, but I have a friend who is an Americana artist who is pretty well known to the fiddle and bluegrass insiders, who's name is Jim Wood. He does exactly what sven talks about. He does house concerts, local shows, bigger regional stuff, and releases stuff with his wife Inge. And he has a small and devoted following that go to his shows. He has 4 kids and only does shows with as a leader so he doesn't stray too far from home. Makes a pretty good living. I have another friend named Shane Adkins who is a smokin fingerstyle Atkins/Travis style player. Like Jim, he has won tons of 'bluegrass awards' and does pretty much what sven says....I have played with him a couple of times and watched him sell 40 cd's at a gig at $10 a pop, and a pile of swag. And he got paid a couple hundred for the gig..... I hate to drop names around here, but you wanted examples. These cats are doing the music they love, playing the {censored} out of it at an extremely high level, and making good bank staying off the international stage and staying small..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 I hate to drop names around here, but you wanted examples. These cats are doing the music they love, playing the {censored} out of it at an extremely high level, and making good bank staying off the international stage and staying small..... Yes. At the risk of repeating myself...there is much to be said for being a bigger fish in a smaller pond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 Gee, I don't check in for a few days and I miss the slugfest between resident cynic flatfinger and resident optimist sventvkg. Huh. We have said here, before, that it is going to be easier for the solo musician to succeed than for a band. We had a good thread once about the expenses and how much greater they were for a band - A solo guy can charge $200 and a 5 piece would have to charge $1,000 for the same money per band member. A case of obvious math but still a very important concept. Obviously there are people out there making a living doing the whole new music biz house concert/sell t-shirts deal. I personally would never consider making those kind of sacrifices for that small amount of money, but that's me. And probably a lot of us here, but not all of us. But folks are out there doing it, yes. One thing that is open for debate, though, is how HARD is it to do it on your own? To take that whole route? You have to have music that will appeal to certain kinds of people, you have to play in certain genres, definitely. Death Metal artists need not apply. So obviously this model can't work for everyone. Not that I care if I ever hear another growling cookie monster vocal again. But I think that it would be very difficult to go this route, you'd have to be very, very good, play the right kind of music, be willing to bust your ass, and most likely not make much money and die broke. I think it's for people who would be absolutely miserable trying to do anything else for a living, including playing covers and selling instruments. I do believe we are seeing a rise in the number of artists deciding to go it alone vs being in a band. Bands are becoming impractical for anyone who wants a serious shot at making a living. What impact will this have on contemporary music? I dunno. There will still be bands, obviously. But the emphasis on going it alone will have some type of impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PermaNoobie Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 What's that old joke How Many Musicians does it take to change a lightbulb? What's the job pay man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 I must apologize for being overzealous ; I just think that the one particular example given ( Amanda Palmer) is a very poor example to model oneself after ...... Previous Label promotion ,Theatrical stunts with calculated media attention gathering {censored} storms and ,when all is said and done; Musically all sizzle and no steak . (IMHO of course) If I were given the task of selling the new fangled , web promotion and musicians coaching/GURU point of view , I wouldn't risk attempting to use her as a shining example; it's to easy to de-bunk. ( shooting fish in a barrel easy ) This isn't a total retraction mind you ; I still think if one is willing to make wide proclamations and say they know the way , then they should also be willing to explain WHY they feel that it is the truth. Not just say " because It's my truth " or " you don't get it . If you believe something , and have the time to come here and broadcast it , then you should also be willing to elaborate a bit beyond simple sloganeering ...... or not ...... It's a free country and what not ..... But some of us are going to be a little tougher sell than that ... or maybe it is just a drive by sloganeering session here at H.C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 "resident cynic flatfinger" O.K. , so now that I have an official title , start sending the paychecks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Richard. I think it has a nice ring to it !!!! remember , the glass is_ ALWAYS_ HALF_EMPTY Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 Finger, it's just a waste of time to come here and argue. I'm saying it can be done and artists are doing it. I know some of them. Obviously I hit some type of sore spot with my amada palmer analogy. As to what Richard said, I agree it's tougher with bands. I don't see any sure fire way to get a band out there other than basically becoming homeless, roving around in a van, scrounging for gas money, eating Ramen. I know bands are doing it but it beats me as to how they are surviving up to the point where they can cover gas money and expenses. Rich band member? Rich parents?...Here's what my friend's band, The Whipsaws did. They did radio and press campaigns for college, public, AAA type stations all through the midwest. People dug their music. Once they got enough traction, they bought a van and started working that region for 2 months at a time. They would come home for a few months then go back out. They did this a bunch of times. He told me the first time they broke even and they made money every other time after that. I guess people responded well enough to the music and we can't discount the importance of terrestrial radio. If they didn't spend the $$ to do a radio marketing campaign, no one would have ever known them in this market. Radio still seems to be important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PermaNoobie Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 and we can't discount the importance of terrestrial radio. True dat, while extraterrestrial radio might open up a larger potential audience, by the time the majority of potential fans hear it, you'll have long since died Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 Finger, it's just a waste of time to come here and argue. I'm saying it can be done and artists are doing it. I know some of them. Obviously I hit some type of sore spot with my Armada palmer analogy. Argue ? some might call it debate. Sometimes you can learn something in these discussions . That's my only goal . There is no "sore spot " with the artist in question. Someone else parroted her up in a similar discussion at another forum last year so not knowing of her I did some due diligence research ( took all of twenty minutes or so .. it's easy) and, found out what a farce it is to hold her up as an example of any web music business model ...( at least if your a serious musician and not a charlatan) I'm sorry if I offended you . I'm not saying you're a bull{censored}ter . The quest for knowledge is what drives me at all times, so , as you very often are brushing questions aside or, just ignoring requests for further elaboration IT APPEARS as though you might be being evasive . Maybe you are not mindful of how your "run and gun" style appears sometimes . Lot's of folks are not into "keeping up appearances" . I don't know you well so I can only speculate . Perhaps you just think an in depth discussion will inevitably end up in an argument and you seem to be very averse to anything that even resembles an "argument" ... Like I said , I wont trouble you to get further into nuance in the future .... to each his own then ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 I do believe we are seeing a rise in the number of artists deciding to go it alone vs being in a band. Bands are becoming impractical for anyone who wants a serious shot at making a living. What impact will this have on contemporary music? I dunno. There will still be bands, obviously. But the emphasis on going it alone will have some type of impact. Well Mastering Engineers always say that one of the most important things they can bring to the table is a totally objective set of ears . When you have been working on a project ( in the example above , you've been mixing for weeks!) you are going to suffer from the "can't see the forest through the trees " syndrome. Some bands in the past really depended on the collaborative process to get the creative juices flowing and to edit and re-edit the material . Say bye bye to that model then. We'll have to depend on individuals who have the trait of working best in isolation .... which probably halves the creative minds who can be in the game under these conditions ....brilliant . ( was that cynical enough to maintain "resident" status?? ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted March 25, 2011 Moderators Share Posted March 25, 2011 O.K. , so now that I have an official title , start sending the paychecks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks Richard. I think it has a nice ring to it !!!! remember , the glass is_ ALWAYS_ HALF_EMPTY Check your User Level... Sorry...no paycheck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members flatfinger Posted March 25, 2011 Members Share Posted March 25, 2011 Check your User Level... Sorry...no paycheck! I'm honored! It's Ironic though;........ just like my real job ........ Lot's of responsibility, backed up by only implied authority and renumeration is less than peanuts !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted March 25, 2011 Moderators Share Posted March 25, 2011 Hey, I can only do just so much here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 3shiftgtr Posted March 27, 2011 Members Share Posted March 27, 2011 Yes. At the risk of repeating myself...there is much to be said for being a bigger fish in a smaller pond. In my case, it is the biggest tadpole in the puddle..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members richardmac Posted March 27, 2011 Members Share Posted March 27, 2011 I feel more like a minnow in the Atlantic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sventvkg Posted March 27, 2011 Members Share Posted March 27, 2011 I've been the biggest fish in the pond, had the best gigs, got paid the most, etc etc..It's a means to an end..At least for me it was but I wanted to achieve more. For some I guess it's a goal but everyone I have seen in that position has their time, their run and than burns out. Ends up like my other thread, broke with not enough gigs to live on at 60...So..No thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted March 27, 2011 Members Share Posted March 27, 2011 I've been the biggest fish in the pond, had the best gigs, got paid the most, etc etc..It's a means to an end..At least for me it was but I wanted to achieve more. For some I guess it's a goal but everyone I have seen in that position has their time, their run and than burns out. Ends up like my other thread, broke with not enough gigs to live on at 60...So..No thanks. Actually, you can stay in one area and remain a big fish IF you re-invent yourself every few years. You can't keep delivering the same old stuff for long, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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