Here's a dumb tube question...

[GZsound]

I have been reading as much as I can about tube LD mics and tube preamps.. And I have been unable to find the answer to a question.

 

Is there a difference in the sound...which I know is very subjective... between using a tube mic with a non tube pre or using a non tube mic with a tube pre?

 

Isn't the objective of the tube to add "warmth" (tube distortion) to the signal? Would using a tube mic into a tube pre create too much "warmth"?

 

What I'm driving at is this.. If I am going to buy a "quality" large diaphragm mic, wouldn't I be better served buying something like a U87, a BLUE, a Langevin, etc. good quality solid state mic, and then invest in a decent tube mic pre?

 

Would that give me the best of both worlds?

[where02190]

I use a tube mic (Rode NTK) and tube mic pres (TL Audio, HHB) all the time.

[Gus Lozada]

Tubes are NOT "transparent"... and that is not a bad thing at all

 

Summing a TUBE mic with a tube PRE will add the character of both devices which will be as good or as bad if you happen to know the added "warmth" from each device and can identify where is each part of the sound coming from.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally posted by GZsound Isn't the objective of the tube to add "warmth" (tube distortion) to the signal? Would using a tube mic into a tube pre create too much "warmth"?

 

 

To answer the first question, in my opinion, no. The original intention of a tube was, quite frankly, to pass a signal and simply sound good doing it. Some tube stuff sounds fairly clean, while others obviously distort, but typically in an ear-pleasing musical sort of way. But nowadays, I think a lot of the "adding warmth to chase away that cold digital sound" is largely marketing. I think transformers might add more "warmth" than most tube stuff.

 

At any rate, I have an AT4060 LDC. This has a tube. However, it doesn't sound stereotypically "tubey". It's clean and neutral sounding.

 

~~~~

 

To answer your second question...I'm not sure what "too much warmth" would be like. Too much distortion? At any rate, consider that people some decades ago were running everything through tubes because, well, that's what they had. I run the Lawson L251 through a Peavey VMP-2 occasionally (although most of the time, it's running through an RNP or a Neve Portico), and it sounded purty fine through it. But I suppose to answer your question properly, the answer would be: it depends on the equipment. But certainly, just because two items have tubes in 'em doesn't mean you can't use them together.

[seaneldon]

 

Originally posted by Gus Lozada Tubes are NOT "transparent"

 

 

sure they are. i've got a bunch of tube mics and preamps that are as natural as it gets. this is a common misconception with tube equipment. do not believe this.

[Gus Lozada]

 

Originally posted by seaneldon sure they are. i've got a bunch of tube mics and preamps that are as natural as it gets. this is a common misconception with tube equipment. do not believe this.

 

 

... ok... GOOD TUBES are transparent - some-

 

Kinda of kidding, but... LOW END tube mics and pres aren't transparent at all. That is not a bad thing and it is a reality

 

Ken is right too... some "warmth" is really added by the transformers rather than tubes, but anyway, YMMV.

[UstadKhanAli]

Yeah, that's why I answered it like I did. Some tube stuff is definitely transparent, while some are seemingly made to distort... But so much of it is marketing hype. With ad copy, the consumer is almost led to believe that anything with a glowing tube in there automatically warms things up and that's the end of it.

 

And again, to drive the point home from the original post, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using two or more items with tubes on them. Whatever works, whatever sounds good. It's more about choosing the best equipment to achieve the sound you want then whether it's got tubes in it.

[Gus Lozada]

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli And again, to drive the point home from the original post, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using two or more items with tubes on them. Whatever works, whatever sounds good. It's more about choosing the best equipment to achieve the sound you want then whether it's got tubes in it.

 

AMEN to that!

 

I just wanted to say "be careful since both devices MAY add "color" and you should know where the added color is coming from"

 

By the way, GZSound... it was NOT a "dumb" question

[GZsound]

Thanks..

 

I just have been leaning more towards solid state mics and using a decent tube pre..and I wish I could explain why that appeals to me.

 

I am presuming a tube mic has no "saturation" adjustment and what you get is what you get, while a tube pre can be adjusted for more or less saturation...correct?

 

That is the logic I am using in thinking I should get a good clean solid state mic and a good tube pre. Just to have the most options available with limited gear.

[Phil O'Keefe]

And again, to drive the point home from the original post, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using two or more items with tubes on them.

 

Many of the all time classics were recorded on all tube setups - from mic, to preamp to compressor to board - all tubes. And transformers. Lots of iron. Oh yeah, then printed to tape. Lots of coloration there.

 

OTOH, I have to agree that a tube doesn't always mean "colored". A tube, when running within its specs, doesn't really function within a circuit differently than a transistor does... it's the way the two devices distort, especially at the onset of clipping, that makes them sound different IMO. You could make a 'transparent tube" device, or a highly colored solid state device. It really depends on a lot of variables besides just "tube or solid state".

 

Whatever works, whatever sounds good.

 

Yup.

 

I just have been leaning more towards solid state mics and using a decent tube pre..and I wish I could explain why that appeals to me.

 

Nothing wrong with that per se... what is the difference you're hearing? What's the solid state mic, and what preamp are you using with it?

[Kiwiburger]

You can't have too much tubey goodness in my book. As Phil pointed out, a lot of classic music was recorded through an all tube chain - e.g. all The Beatles albums prior to Abbey Road.

 

Digital sound is virtually transparent, and lacking a lot of the coloration of the multiple tubes, multiple transformers and multiple tape generations.

 

Watch out for the low voltage 'starved plate' toob scams out there. Anything that runs on a power adapter and features an LED to light up the tube is very suspect. They make fuzzy mush, and are designed as an overdrive effect for guitarists, mainly.

 

Real tube designs require high voltage, hence the heavy transformers and heavy prices. They can be a little noisy too, unless extra care (and expense) is taken.

 

But still highly desirable. I like my NTK mic - it has a warmth that sets it apart from my solid state stuff. I'd like some better tube mics too eventually.

 

Edit: IMO, tubes can be 'more than transparent'. In other words, they can appear to be more transparent than solid state. I tend to think that this is because of desirable coloration that acts like an exciter or enhancer, just a little. You could argue either way, but I think solid state is more transparent, but we actually prefer tube sound and think of as being more transparent. Making music with electricity is sort of beyond real transparency anyway - but we like what we hear with tubes for some reason.

[GZsound]

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe And again, to drive the point home from the original post, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using two or more items with tubes on them. Many of the all time classics were recorded on all tube setups - from mic, to preamp to compressor to board - all tubes. And transformers. Lots of iron. Oh yeah, then printed to tape. Lots of coloration there. OTOH, I have to agree that a tube doesn't always mean "colored". A tube, when running within its specs, doesn't really function within a circuit differently than a transistor does... it's the way the two devices distort, especially at the onset of clipping, that makes them sound different IMO. You could make a 'transparent tube" device, or a highly colored solid state device. It really depends on a lot of variables besides just "tube or solid state". Whatever works, whatever sounds good. Yup. I just have been leaning more towards solid state mics and using a decent tube pre..and I wish I could explain why that appeals to me. Nothing wrong with that per se... what is the difference you're hearing? What's the solid state mic, and what preamp are you using with it?

 

I am not "hearing" anything right now.. I am trying to make some purchase decisions for upgrading my studio and as always, want to wring the most out of whatever I get.

 

I am considering a Langevin CR2001 mic and haven't settled on a pre yet.. It is so hard to get a definative answer out of anybody or any review regarding mic preamps that my search is still ongoing.

[Phil O'Keefe]

What type of budget are you working with for the preamp Mark?

[GZsound]

Well, that too is a good question. Probably fifteen hundred or below. I don't think the return on investment would be that good on a more expensive unit.

 

Part of the problem is with the good reviews of other non tube mic preamps like the RNP, Grace, Seventh Circle and even a Symetrix 202 for a couple hundred dollars used. They keep clouding the issue for me.

 

I really haven't found a tube pre that floats my boat for under several thousand dollars yet. Always open to any suggestions.

[UstadKhanAli]

Neve Portico 5012. It ain't a tube pre, but it can do the distortion very well in Silk Mode, and sounds great. Two channels for somewhere around $15-1600, so it ain't cheap. But it is huuuuuge sounding, with all the usual stupid adjectives that ad copyists love - big, fat, saturated, lots of girth, whatever. And it also does clean sounds well.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli Neve Portico 5012. It ain't a tube pre, but it can do the distortion very well in Silk Mode, and sounds great. Two channels for somewhere around $15-1600, so it ain't cheap. But it is huuuuuge sounding, with all the usual stupid adjectives that ad copyists love - big, fat, saturated, lots of girth, whatever. And it also does clean sounds well.

 

Does it have its own satellite dish, sir?

 

 

(Sorry, I couldn't resist. )

[GZsound]

Thanks guys. Any words of wisdom on the Universal Audio Solo 610 or Summit Audio 2BA-221?

 

I don't need two channels necessarily..

[Phil O'Keefe]

I have not tried the Solo 610 yet, but IIRC, it's supposed to be pretty close, if not the same as, a standard rackmount 610 from what I've read. And a standard 610 is a cool sounding preamp - but definitely colored in approach / sound.

 

Have you played with a Groove Tubes Brick yet?

[jackcheez]

Thanks guys. Any words of wisdom on the Universal Audio Solo 610 or Summit Audio 2BA-221?

I have the 2-610 and love it.

[GZsound]

Thanks. I think I'll get whatever mic I am planning on using first and then go preamp shopping. I am going to find some local studio's that have some different preamps they may let me try and I am going to hit all the local music stores that carry some of the pre's and try them all out.

 

Obviously my concern is with getting the best sound for the money, and simply going by how much a unit costs apparently has very little bearing on the quality of the sound of the unit.

 

And as of last night I have a new use for a preamp. My Fishman bass preamp that I use on my wife's Emminence Bass took a dump and now I am considering the usefulness of whatever pre I get for use with her bass both live and in the studio.

 

It never ends....

 

I appreciate the advice.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally posted by GZsound Thanks. I think I'll get whatever mic I am planning on using first and then go preamp shopping.

 

 

Mark, I think that's a really wise approach. You'll find something that is very complementary with your mic this way.

 

The one bit of advice is not to get hung up on whether the preamp (or anything else, for that matter) has a tube in it, but simply how it sounds. Some solid state stuff is much fatter, warmer, distorts pleasingly on command

Lettuce know what you choose!

[Phil O'Keefe]

And as of last night I have a new use for a preamp. My Fishman bass preamp that I use on my wife's Emminence Bass took a dump and now I am considering the usefulness of whatever pre I get for use with her bass both live and in the studio.

 

Sorry to hear about that Mark. Definitely give a GT Brick a listen. It has become my "go to" bass DI box. And while it is not quite as fully featured as some other mic preamps (no EQ, no HPF; just 55 dB of max gain and switchable phantom power), it's also a very good sounding mic preamp too. It definitely has what many people would consider a "tube" sound, and unlike many / most "affordable" "toob" preamps, it's not a starved plate design. It uses high plate voltages and really big transformers.

[jackcheez]

I'm gonna have to get me one of those.

[UstadKhanAli]

Didn't catch that. Mark, in case you are considering the Portico, it does NOT have a DI.

 

I do have a Peavey VMP-2 dual tube mic preamp, but I think you probably want something different. It's a nice mic preamp and has DI, so I don't know, but maybe you are looking for something more high-end. It does nicely with guitars and basses.

[Bossa]

I have a few preamps, and I tend to like clean sounding preamps, the "wire with gain" type. Examples of these in my opinion include Grace, Earthworks, Buzz, Sytek. The one I go to most often, although it's not what you'd call a highly sought after boutique pre, is the DBX 786.

 

The reason for this is I like to have the mics (and mic techniques/placement) provide the coloration, when I want it. I guess it would be nice to have every piece of equipment, but I like to think of the pres as workhorses and the mics as show ponies. Perhaps the simple reason for this is that mics are smaller and easier to carry around and change up. Try packing up a collection of mic pres to bring to a friend's studio. But maybe this isn't a consideration for you.

 

I have had a UA 620 (sold it) and it is a lustrous sounding preamp, appealing, colored. Depending on your music style and your track counts, it might not sum very well. I don't want cheesecake at every meal. So in my opinion there are times when you can have too much tube, but this depends on the coloration of the gear.

 

Ever wonder what Pet Sounds or Sarge Pepper would have sounded like if it had been recording with all Earthworks mics and pres into Protools?