Could a new up and coming Tom Waits type atist make it in today's business?

[g6120]

We all probably know the answer but it's an interesting question.

I'm reading his biography and learning a lot about his career and early beginnings.

He worked at a Pizza place and at night went to the open mic nights at Doug Weston's Troubador. This was in 1972-1973 and the industry was just then recognizing the huge potential of the singer/songwriter artist. James Taylor and Carol King just had huge album sales and hit songs. The timing was perfect.

 

Record company scouts were hanging out at the Troubador and signing up anyone who could write a halfway decent song. In other words the door was open wide and Tom Waits stepped right through. He got signed right away to a record deal and then did an album. Didn't sell well at all but the company sent him out on tour as an opening act sometimes opening for Zappa on his tour and facing very hostile audiences. All manner of objects thrown at him and once an entire hockey arena screamed YOU SUCK at him.

 

Tom Waits was undaunted and kept on writing and performing original material without any regard for what was popular at the time. The record label supported his efforts because they were making so much money on other artists they could afford to "develop" a non commercial, low sales volume artist like Tom Waits.

Things changed when Tom Waits started getting good critic reviews for his songs and then bands like Eagles, Bruce Springsteen, Rod Stewart, Elvis Costello and others covered his songs and had great success with them. The royalty checks started coming in.

 

Was around 1983 when Tom Waits presented the record company with songs from his upcoming Swordfish Trombone album. Tom expected encouragement for his new direction but instead the label dropped him. Asylum apparently saw no commercial potential in his new music and decided to cut the losses in advance of the album.

Tom Waits went to Island records where he flourished for many years.

He left Island on his own when they were sold to a larger company and the original owner was no longer involved. He now is on a small independent label.

 

What a story! And look at the truly monumental, yet uncompromising, artist he turned into. Nobody had a clue in the beginning. He was an oddball who was a throwback to the beatnik era when he started out. Given the opportunity he took it and ran and made an impressive career of it.

 

Now put that in the context of today.

There is no way an unproven talent who is perceived to have no commercial potential could make it in the music business today. Tom Waits was able to make it because the timing was right and he got the exposure and developed a cult following and the respect of his peers. Forget about it today.

 

Just my opinion after reading his story.

[richardmac]

I think it is possible for an artist who is outside the norm to make a living today. I do not think it is possible for that same artist to make a "good" living, not for any sustained amount of time. Music just doesn't pay like it used to.

[BlueStrat]

Not only could he, they are. Oh, not exactly like Waits (but then, who is?) but guys like James McMurtry, Robert Earl Keen, and a lot of others are making a living. Not getting rich, mind you, but at least making a living.

[daddymack]

I remember seeing Waits playing dives all over LA...even when the royalty money was coming in, he was still pickin' up change...and I have been a big fan for decadees...but the answer is, no, not to the degree he did. Because there is no one taking risks now, and no one to peddle his songs out to other artists...and, keep in mind, Waits was fairly well known here from some , shall we call them, 'odd outcomes' of his gigs at places like the Troub, and several others...so many of the local 'stars' already knew him, or at least of him.

[sventvkg]

Ah, there are plenty of artists out there doing just that but as far as if they can make as much as Waits made? Don't know but ya know if we can make a living in this business I believe we hit the Lottery so what the heck!!

[BlueStrat]

The problem with "could (fill in the blank) have made it today?" threads is they ignore most of the reasons the artist "made it" in the first place: the zeitgeist they existed in when they broke through. Tom Waits came along when he did because the culture was ready for him and there had never been a Tom Waits before. You could name any artist- would the Beatles, or Van Halen, or Tom Petty even get signed today, let alone 'make it'? It my be fun conjecture, but so many other factors went into their success than just talent and opportunity. I think sometimes we overlook that.

[Poker99]

 

It my be fun conjecture, but so many other factors went into their success than just talent and opportunity. I think sometimes we overlook that.

 

 

Its not as sexy.

[Matximus]

As in can a charismatic but over-rated blowhard that can't sing and has never had a hit song or hit record expect to have a career in music today? Of course not - and thank god. Nothing represents the recording industry bubble better than oddballs like this dude that managed to eke out a career.

 

Cause here's the way it was: Tom Waits didn't sell records. Jackson Browne did. So David Geffen could afford to let Tom Waits make records that didn't make money because Jackson Browne made records that made lots of bread.

 

I don't see the point of crying about eliminating a situation where an artist that can't make any money gets to ride on the coat-tails of those that can. It's not like Tom Waits was entitled to a career just because he was cool or something. What the hell's so impressive about what he did? Making difficult albums that nobody is interested in buying... is actually one of the easiest things to do in music...

[Surrealistic]

Matximus - You do this deliberately don't you?

 

I mean you must know that Waits has indeed had a number of high selling albums and written a number of songs that have been hit singles (albeit recorded by others). Therefore you must also know that it is far from true that "nobody is interested in buying" his albums.

 

So what it comes down to is: you don't much like him. Not sure why you can't just say that. It just comes across as trollish and a little foolish to add in "facts" that are this easy to knock down.

[Dancebass]

Sure a guy like Tom Waits could potentially be supported by the mainstream today. He would just need to pretend to be a gay vegan animal rights eco activist.

 

It wouldn't hurt to add a wheelchair into the mix somehow either.

[daddymack]

Tom Waits, as a performer, was not really 'supported' by the mainstream anyway. He has always held more of a cult status, and honestly, he is obviously totally cool with that. His total disdain for the mainstream is one of the major factors of why he continues to be able to put out music...because, if nothing else, he is one of the best writers from a generation of writers. His ability to peek inside the rotting carcass of Hollywood (no one tears this place apart better than TW...oh, and he hates Vegas too ) and put the images he sees into words set to music is uncanny. Not always pleasant, rarely radio friendly...but always Waits... not unlike Frank Zappa, another cult icon.

[Matximus]

 

Matximus - You do this deliberately don't you? I mean you must know that Waits has indeed had a number of high selling albums and written a number of songs that have been hit singles (albeit recorded by others). Therefore you must also know that it is far from true that "nobody is interested in buying" his albums. So what it comes down to is: you don't much like him. Not sure why you can't just say that. It just comes across as trollish and a little foolish to add in "facts" that are this easy to knock down.

 

 

No - I really don't now. Prove it. Name them. What is a Tom Waits hit? A hit Tom Waits song? I'm actually curious. From what I can tell he's a non-entity, commercially. I may be wrong - but Where are your facts? I scanned all this before my post - but I absolutely invite you to prove me wrong. Like it's supposed to be gospel that Tom Waits is some kinda great songwriter or something... because he's Tom Waits. A legend. I think that's bull{censored}. We know his name today because he is Tom Waits... the actor.

 

Looks like he had a song I've never heard of called Ole 55 or someihng on one of the not-mega-popular Eagles Records. If you're prepared to argue that writng a song for a minor eagles record classifies you as a cultural tour de force... then, yeah.... Eagles. Ugh...

 

From what I can tell, the most successful thing he's ever done was Blitzkreig Bop, by Ramones. But as a performer himself he doesn't appear to rate. Maybe I'm wrong. I really don't know that much about the 70s songwriter types and I'm not all that interested in them.

 

Allmusic shows the highest charting album Waits ever had peaked at 28 on the Billboard 200, back in 2004. And that's the best he did. Like, ever. All his 70s stuff looks like it languished in no man's land. Doesn't have a tab for him as far as Billboard singles, which either means that function is broken on the Web site or he never had a substantial single.

 

http://www.allmusic.com/artist/tom-waits-p5778/charts-awards

 

And I actually like some of Tom Waits work, the early stuff. Like, when he actually sung. Little Trip to Heaven is fantastic. Had Me A Girl. So Long I'll See you. I got down to the Early Years compilation. The later stuff he did after he blew out his voice is a joke - its high-end ear garbage for record geeks. He's alright - I don't mind him. But the cultish overblown affection he endears gets on my nerves because, come on, the guy can't sing and most of his music is the worst kind of inaccessible songwriter crap.

[Surrealistic]

Hey get your own secretary and/or look it up yourself

 

Over on this side of the pond Tom has had a number of gold selling albums and is responsible for writing at least two hit singles recorded by other artists.

 

For the record I think his first album was okay but not extraordinary. Later he became extraordinary and has kept up a standard that no other artist can match over the past 30 years - in my humble opinion of course. You're welcome to think his music is a joke - and I will base my opinion of your taste accordingly. Nothing personal and we all have different tastes.

[BlueStrat]

 

From what I can tell, the most successful thing he's ever done was Blitzkreig Bop, by Ramones. But as a performer himself he doesn't appear to rate. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

 

No 'maybe' about it.

 

The Eagles had a hit with "Ol 55".

 

[video=youtube;MaC_cChs6hA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaC_cChs6hA

 

Diana Krall did well with ''Heart of Saturday Night"

 

[video=youtube;Hk4wn_YPocc]

 

This song was the theme song for The Wire on HBO and covered by the Blind Boys of Alabama

 

[video=youtube;mzIuUW9VUr0]

 

For a guy who never set out out be a commercial success, he did okay. He's done a bit of acting, too:

 

"Gravel-voiced, versatile singer/songwriter Tom Waits has composed and played music in a variety of films, ranging from Francis Ford Coppola's One From the Heart (1982) to Jean-Luc Godard's First Name: Carmen (1983). On or off camera, Waits has been a colorful, quirky character noted for his surreal humor. Many of his songs reflect his interest in movies with either direct references or sly musical suggestions. During the late '70s, he became more directly involved in film, composing songs and even playing piano onscreen in Paradise Alley (1978). In the early '80s, Waits teamed up with Coppola, first with the Greek choir-like narration for One From the Heart and then as an actor in several of his films. At first, Waits had a one-line role as Buck Merrill in The Outsiders (1983). Coppola next gave Waits a bigger part as Benny in Rumble Fish (1983), and then dressed the rangy singer in a tuxedo and cast him as the MC in The Cotton Club (1984).

 

Although he has often been offered the roles of nutcases and psychos in commercial films, Waits has preferred to work in independent productions such as Down by Law (1986). He entered mainstream film with 1987's offbeat drama Ironweed, and played himself in the concert film Big Time (1988), in which he performed his stage musical Frank's Wild Years and played the roles of a bored box-office manager, usher, and lighting grip. Waits also appeared in Bram Stoker's Dracula (1992). He continued to make acting a regular element of his career throughout the 90s and 2000s with supporting roles in films like 12 Monkeys (1995) and Mystery Men (1999), and playing himself in a vignette featuring fellow musician Iggy Pop in Jim Jarmuche's Coffee and Cigarettes (2003). Waits then went on to appear in the movie Domino (2005), which he also provided music for, and Terry Gilliam's The Imaginarium of Dr. Parnassus. ~ Sandra Brennan, Rovi"

 

TW is definitely a cult following kind of guy, but he has had quite a good career.

[aenemated]

finally found it ... the dumbest person on the internet. matximus.

 

thank you for concluding my search.

 

@blue strat - you forgot to mention, as much as it pains me to bring up, the ridiculous success rod stewart gained from "downtown train." and bruce springsteen has certainly worked "jersey girl" out quite a bit. but i like the boss, so i won't give him any {censored} for it.

[Matximus]

 

No 'maybe' about it. For a guy who never set out out be a commercial success, he did okay. He's done a bit of acting, too: TW is definitely a cult following kind of guy, but he has had quite a good career.

 

 

That is clearly true - and I stand corrected on him not being a great songwriter. I didn't realize how many things he's done - like Blitzkreig bop and the song from the Wire, Downtown Train. I guess he's one of those guys artists really love more than regular people really love, which is a special kind of currency.

 

And that was pretty myopic and typically... American. The idea that if he's never been big out front in U.S. he's never mattered anywhere.

 

But still - I can't get on board with that circus/theater music grouchy growling bit of his. I do like the idea of him carving out an interesting and successful niche by saying Eff You and doing his own thing, though. I mean, he clearly has a special kind of charisma.

[BlueStrat]

 

But still - I can't get on board with that circus/theater music grouchy growling bit of his.

 

 

It's definitely an acquired taste. Some of his records seem to be almost a parody of himself, kind of like Bob Dylan did.

 

My favorites of Waits are "Nighthawks at the Diner" ( A live album) and "The Heart of Saturday Night" .

[daddymack]

The idea that if he's never been big out front in U.S. he's never mattered anywhere.

but he's "Big in Japan"... [video=youtube;rMt5t1dG2cg]

 

Waits has been flying under the radar for decades...and admittedly, an acquired taste. But if you appreciate someone who will call them as he sees them, and has a biting wit, twisted sense of humor and the musical chops to back it all up...you may actually like him. I literally stumbled on him in the late 70s when I was doing sound here in L.A., before many people were hip to him...and have been a fan ever since. I even have the band covering one of his songs...

 

'never did like that dog...'