Vocals buried in the mix

[brian123]

I am a home recordest. I have recorded vocals, and I have two options. I can make the vocal stand out or be buried in the mix. Seems like after I compress my vocals. They are so up front in the mix. Is there a way to get the vocal buried and sound like its coming from a distance?. In particular I am recording a vocal for the Beatles "Dear Prudence" I was wondering how I can bury the vocal in the mix the way the Beatles did it and not have it stand out so much.and have it sound like it coming from the back of the mix. After I compress, it it just stands out, it is way to much up front.

[aerorockjax]

a good reverb or echo/delay set up a certain way can add 3dness and can be made to seem further away yet still be balanced well to be heard clearly in the mix. Experiment and you'll get the hang of it. Avoid excessive reverb cause that just becomes counter productive and tends to sound like {censored}.

[Paully]

 

Originally posted by brian123 ISeems like after I compress my vocals. They are so up front in the mix. Is there a way to get the vocal buried and sound like its coming from a distance?.

 

Brian,

 

Sounds like your vocals are not following the dynamics of the other instruments. That's what compression does.. lessens dynamics. I'd go back, reduce the level of vocal compression (mabee just some hard limiting if needed), THEN throw a (stereo) compressor across the L/R main outs. That'll smooth out the whole picture, while rebalancing the mix. You might also try lowering the vocal EQ in the 3K region and up.. not to mention the level. As far as the distance thing goes, treble perception drops off with increasing distance. Take that into cosideration when EQing.

 

Best, Paul

[UstadKhanAli]

Riding the fader (or automation or whatever) helps. Carving a little midrange in a couple of midrange instruments (guitars, keyboards) and then boosting a little of the exact mids in the vocals sometimes can help in a dense mix. Using a bit of delay instead of reverb can sometimes help add spaciousness without clouding everything up. Some, none, or all of these suggestions can help, depending on what style of music you're working on, what your like, and what's right for the song.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Brian, are you automating the vocal levels after your compression? In other words, are you turning things up and down at various points in the mix? If you did the automation before the compression, then chances are better than good it will all be "off" post-compression, and you'll need to do it again.

 

Are you running your compression as a active plug in, or did you track with it / apply it destructively / "freeze" the track?

 

You've already been given some very good advice. Distance and depth is a matter of several things in combination. More reverb and delay = greater distance from the listener. Less upper mid and high frequencies = greater distance from the listener (high frequencies are attenuated more quickly and easily in nature at a distance than low frequencies are).

 

So by rolling off a touch of the top with EQ, adding a bit of predelay and reverb (the Beatles used tape delays and chamber reverbs), and / or pulling down the fader a bit (and automating the levels throughout the song as needed - too loud here? Pull it down... too soft there? Turn it up! ) you should be able to get it to "sit in the mix the way you want it to.

[Paully]

 

Originally posted by Phil O'Keefe ... too loud here? Pull it down... too soft there? Turn it up!

 

That's what I was thinking when I suggested tracking with less or no compression.. to get some dynamics (if they exist) back into the voice. As you alluded to, this is next to impossible if the vocals were compressed during recording. Otherwise EQ and fader-riding are the best bets. As to pre-delay / reverb, I'd like to see him try them used pre-fader, so that the dry voice drops but the effects don't. Very old, yet cool trick; typically used to move background singers back in space when needed.

 

Paul

[brian123]

1"Are you running your compression as a active plug in, or did you track with it / apply it destructively / "freeze" the track? " Phil

 

1. I did not track with the compression. I tracked it dry. I have a stand alone unit a Zoom with the compressor built in. Now I cannot figure what to set the compressor levels at. I know next to nothing about compression. 0-15 is the range for compression attack time. I set the compression attack time for 6 'why because Dear Prudence is a slow song, and slow song needs a slower attack time than a fast song as oposed to, Back in the USSR 'which needs a faster attack time. I probably don't what the heck I am talking about. As for SENS 0-15 this adjust the compression input sensitivity I set it at 14. Maybe somebody can explain what this means Can somebody give me a ideas what these controls should be set at? Don't give me it depends on what is right for the song. That does not help. . As for Level I set it for 6 on a scale 1-8.

Brian

2 That's what compression does.. lessens dynamics. I'd go back, reduce the level of vocal compression (mabee just some hard limiting if needed), THEN throw a (stereo) compressor across the L/R main outs Paulley

 

2 By hard limiting you mean plenty of it. I have a limiter built in the Zoom. The thresold range 0-15 adjusts the limiter action thresold. Should I set that at 13 excessively high. the release range 0-15 adjusts the time delay between the thresold crossing point and compression finish. What should i set the release on the limiter at? "Brian"

3 THEN throw a (stereo) compressor across the L/R main outs"

Pauley 3 What do you mean L/R main outs? Explain L/R main outs.?Do you mean put compression on the entire mix? All I know about compression is you can apply it each track individually or apply it to the whole mix. Brian

 

4 "Brian, are you automating the vocal levels after your compression? In other words, are you turning things up and down at various points in the mix? If you did the automation before the compression, then chances are better than good it will all be "off" post-compression, and you'll need to do it again.

"Phil

 

4 Phil, By automation. Do you you mean a mutitrack recalling the mixer settings The current mixer settings can be saved as a scene. I move the fader up and down after I saved a scene (mixer settings.) I move the fader up on track 6 because maybe don't have enough drums loud enough . I then move the fader up on track 5 because the vocal are not loud enough. Do you automate the vocal levels first and then compress?

 

Brian

 

 

5 "You might also try lowering the vocal EQ in the 3K region and up.. not to mention the level. "

Pauley 5 I added a fairly big boost at 3.2 K so the vocals have more presence. I'll try to cut a little bit at the 3.2 K like Phil says to do.

 

Brian

[Paully]

Brian,

 

Here's a good discription of what a compressor is / does.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_level_compression

 

Because we don't know your equipment setup, or precisely the sound that you're looking for, general advice is the best you can expect. That's why doctors don't like to diagnose over the phone. All the stuff mentioned will help achieve what (I think) you want. It's really up to you to take them and try them.

 

I mentioned throwing a compressor across the outs buss. Should have said "inserted". Yes it can be done, and is done all the time. A stereo compressor is needed for a stereo mix. Until you practice a little with compression as an effect, don't even bother with buss compression right now. Ever hear a song that is really loud all the way through and has no dynamics? That's over-compression. Very annoying. Very boring. Beware!

 

Limiting is just that.. a limited form of compression. It's used to take out only the momentary, overly loud parts, but leave the rest of the source unaltered. Think of it as an automated version of you quickly pulling the fader back then pushing it back up to level out an overly loud word in a vocal.

 

EQ is simple. Very easy to hear changes as you turn the knobs. Same with level. Practice until you're familiar with what various frequencies sound like.

 

Best, Paul

[Phil O'Keefe]

Here's a link to an excellent article on compression by Craig Anderton.

 

http://www.harmony-central.com/articles/tips/compressors_demystified/

[brian123]

> FullComp

> > means full compression, and the patch uses the Zoom's multi-

> > compressor (MBC) settings. You can compress the highs,

mids,

and

> > lows independently.

> >

> > Interestingly enough, the two settings probably of most

> to

> > most folks would be the compressor sensitivity (at what db

> > does it start compressing, thus how much compression) and

the

mix

> > level for that band. It seems that increasing the

sensitivity

on

> > any band also increases the gain on that band to compensate

> the

> > level reduction from the compression

 

level the

compressor kicks in?

compressor. >

The Comp/LIM Module has 4 types: single comp or lim, and dual comp or

lim. For the compressor the parameters are: SENS, ATTACK, and

LEVEL. These three parameters are explained as:

 

1. SENS: Adjusts the input sensitivity of compression.

2. ATTACK: Adjusts the speed at which compression is applied.

3. LEVEL: Specifies the output level of the module.

 

Never having conciously used a compressor, I'm not sure what "input

sensitivity" refers to. There is a range of 0-15. I'm guessing that

it refers to what decibel the compressor is activated.

[brian123]

UstadKhanAli " Using a bit of delay instead of reverb can sometimes help add spaciousness without clouding everything up. " On my Zoom I have a chorus/delay Module. It has parameters for depth of the effect on the Chorus. Rate -sets the rate of effect. Pre-delay- sets the predelay time. You can set this between1-30. Do you set this at a high level for more spaciousness?

I also have a delay effect that can be set up for 1-1000 mSec This is not pre-delay. This can be set to the tempo of the music. Could this also be used to get more spaciouness?

What is the difference between delay and pre-delay? What does eveybody mean by post fader or pre fader? Is that you master fader?

[Paully]

 

Originally posted by brian123 I also have a delay effect that can be set up for 1-1000 mSec This is not pre-delay. This can be set to the tempo of the music. Could this also be used to get more spaciouness? What is the difference between delay and pre-delay? What does eveybody mean by post fader?

 

Brian,

 

Pre-delay IS delay, used in a different form. Used as a straight delay, a delay unit creates things like slap echo and repeats. You've heard them a million times. Used as a pre-delay, the delayed signal can be fed to a reverb unit, allowing the reverb to be delayed, much as real reverb happens in life. The vocal remains unaltered, but a nice (delayed) reverb follows it.

 

PRE-fader: (before the fader)

When reverb is assigned to Pre-fader, the reverb level is not affected by the main level slider. The dry voice goes up and down in level, but the amount of reverb remains fixed.

 

POST-fader: (after the fader)

The reverb will go up and down in volume with the voice.

 

Best, Paul

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by brian123 UstadKhanAli " Using a bit of delay instead of reverb can sometimes help add spaciousness without clouding everything up. " On my Zoom I have a chorus/delay Module. It has parameters for depth of the effect on the Chorus. Rate -sets the rate of effect. Pre-delay- sets the predelay time. You can set this between1-30. Do you set this at a high level for more spaciousness? I'm assuming that 1-30 refers to milliseconds? Pre-delay is the time between the actual sound and the onset of whatever effect you're using. In other words, you can delay your effect by 1-30. You would likely use this more to delay the effect so that it doesn't conflict with the actual vocal. It does not create a repeating delay effect, but merely offsets the beginning of the effect. I also have a delay effect that can be set up for 1-1000 mSec This is not pre-delay. This can be set to the tempo of the music. Could this also be used to get more spaciouness? Yes, that's what I was referring to in the previous post. The repeats can give a sense of space, and can sometimes imply a large space without using gobs of reverb. There are times in which you might want to use gobs of reverb, and other times in which you might want to impart depth by using delay instead. Or both simultaneously. How you use this depends entirely on your aesthetic sensibilities, the song, the vibe you want to set, how this will support the emotion of the song, the arrangement, the vocal melody, and other factors, so no one can really tell you how to "set" the delay or the reverb. Mess with the tempo, though - quarter notes, eighth notes, triplets, whatever...and see how it feels. Then mess with the feedback and the decay, and also how the repeats of the delay "break up" (making the high end gradually roll off, whatever). What is the difference between delay and pre-delay? What does eveybody mean by post fader? Pre-delay and delay - see my above comments. Some effects affect the sound before the fader, some after. In regard to this discussion here, pre-fader would be placing your effect in your auxiliary inputs so that your main fader for that channel would NOT affect the volume of your delay or reverb. It would affect the vocal itself, but not the effects you're applying to the vocal. Post-fader would affect everything - the volume of your reverb or delay or whatever you are putting on your vocal as well as the main vocal itself. Again, in regard to the discussion at hand here. This gets taken the wrong way constantly, but I would *highly* recommend getting a good book about recording. This would answer a lot of your questions and define a lot of basic terms for you so you could understand signal flow and get on with your recordings, never a bad thing!! I'm not saying don't ask questions here, but simply saying that you would gain a lot of understanding quickly if you find a decent book about recording.

 

[brian123]

FullComp

means full compression, and the patch uses the Zoom's multi-

band

compressor (MBC) settings. You can compress the highs,

mids,

and

lows independently.

 

Interestingly enough, the two settings probably of most

interest

to most folks would be the compressor sensitivity (at what db

level

does it start compressing, thus how much compression) Do you agree ? and the mixl level for that band. It seems that increasing the

sensitivity on any band also increases the gain on that band to compensate for the level reduction from the compression

Zoom has 3 parameters 1. SENS: Adjusts the input sensitivity of compression.

2. ATTACK: Adjusts the speed at which compression is applied.

3. LEVEL: Specifies the output level of the module.

 

1. Sensitivity under compressor, does this refer to what audio

level the

compressor kicks in? Would I be correct in saying the the higher I have the SENS set the more compression I am adding. Would I also be correct in saying the faster the attck time the more compression I am adding? On vocals Do you set the vocals always for fast attack time and fast release depending upon the the tempo of song?

[brian123]

This gets taken the wrong way constantly, but I would *highly* recommend getting a good book about recording. This would answer a lot of your questions and define a lot of basic terms for you so you could understand signal flow and get on with your recordings, never a bad thing!! I'm not saying don't ask questions here, but simply saying that you would gain a lot of understanding quickly if you find a decent book about recording.

Name a book. I have http://www.amazon.com/Mixing-Engineer-Handbook-Second/dp/1598632515/sr=1-1/qid=1158335961/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9365971-4502427?ie=UTF8&s=books and http://www.amazon.com/Professional-Microphone-Techniques-Mix-Audio/dp/0872886859/sr=1-1/qid=1158336127/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9365971-4502427?ie=UTF8&s=books

[Paully]

Brian,

 

I don't know where that last post came from, but please don't waste our time here!

 

Paul

[UstadKhanAli]

Brian,

 

Did these books describe pre and post-fader and other techniques adequately? Did they help you gain a fundamental understanding of signal flow?

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Originally posted by brian123 1. SENS: Adjusts the input sensitivity of compression. 2. ATTACK: Adjusts the speed at which compression is applied. 3. LEVEL: Specifies the output level of the module. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 1. Sensitivity under compressor, does this refer to what audio level the compressor kicks in? Would I be correct in saying the the higher I have the SENS set the more compression I am adding. Would I also be correct in saying the faster the attck time the more compression I am adding? On vocals Do you set the vocals always for fast attack time and fast release depending upon the the tempo of song?

 

 

You've already answered your own questions, weeman/walters.

[Paully]

Originally posted by UstadKhanAli You've already answered your own questions, weeman/walters.

 

Ken,

 

Exactly what I was beginning to think. We don't need another Walters around here (or anywhere). Colosal waste of time and bandwidth.

 

Paul

[Lee Knight]

I like this analogy I read somewhere for vocal levels. Compression alone won't achive this. Performance and fader riding are needed as well:

 

A cork floating in water. Some of it's in the water, some of it's out of the water. No matter how wavy the surface gets, the cork goes along for the ride. Bobbing up and down with the surface contour. It doesn't react as a straight reprensentation of the surface activity but reacts in an averaged out way. Lagging a little perhaps but very consistent. You almost always see at least a little cork breaking the surface...

[Paully]

Lee,

 

Loved the metaphor , but listen to any early Green Day track over a typical FM radio station, and the cork becomes an stationary, immovable object.. even when encountering a tidal wave! :D

 

Paul