Members mysterybat35 Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Hi, How is everyone? I am a bit confused here. What is the difference between a combo amp that has specs. of two 60 watt speakers and a combo amp that has specs. of 120 Watt s with 2 X12 speakers? Do 120 watt combo amps have 60 watts in each speaker? Rogue has a very nice 120 watt amp for the money , but what I want to know is if it is actually just two 60 watt amps put together. Or is there a difference? Thanks MB35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mysterybat35 Posted April 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Take this one for example, it says it is 120 watts, but is it really just two 60 watt speakers or is it actually 120 watts being powered simultaneously through each speaker? MB35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by mysterybat35 Take this one for example, it says it is 120 watts, but is it really just two 60 watt speakers or is it actually 120 watts being powered simultaneously through each speaker? MB35 Umm,the speakers convert the power to sound,they don't power themselves. Obviously,if an amp puts out 120 watts total,that power would be shared by whatever speakers are connected to it. In this case each speaker should get 1/2 of the amp's power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by mysterybat35 Hi,How is everyone? I am a bit confused here. What is the difference between a combo amp that has specs. of two 60 watt speakers and a combo amp that has specs. of 120 Watt s with 2 X12 speakers? Do 120 watt combo amps have 60 watts in each speaker? Rogue has a very nice 120 watt amp for the money , but what I want to know is if it is actually just two 60 watt amps put together. Or is there a difference? ThanksMB35 BTW,nearly everyone will argue that Rogue does not make a very nice amp period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mysterybat35 Posted April 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 why do you say Rogue is a bad amp ?? I have seen mostly good reviews about it? The reviews from Harmony-Central and musiciansfriend say it is a pretty good amp for the prece. They weren't excellent revies but descent. MB35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by mysterybat35 why do you say Rogue is a bad amp ?? I have seen mostly good reviews about it?The reviews from Harmony-Central and musiciansfriend say it is a pretty good amp for the prece. They weren't excellent revies but descent. MB35 OK,just trying to keep you from throwing your money away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mysterybat35 Posted April 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Its not that, I mean if it is a bad amp just tell me whats bad about it. I just don't want for someone to say something is a bad amp. Tell me from experience what about it is bad so I can determine whether it will suit my needs. I just need something for sound. I could care less about the distortion channel. MB35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mysterybat35 Posted April 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 What about the Crate amp like the one above? Is this a good amp? MB35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members batotman Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 The Crate is an ok amp. Do you really need 120W???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mysterybat35 Posted April 30, 2006 Author Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Basically I want something with more than 100 watts , with a price range of $180-$280 bucks... Could care less about effects .. All I need is something to do gigs with for volume without going broke. I have pedals so the distortion channel I could care less about. MB35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by mysterybat35 Basically I want something with more than 100 watts , with a price range of $180-$280 bucks... Could care less about effects .. All I need is something to do gigs with for volume without going broke. I have pedals so the distortion channel I could care less about. MB35 So you don't have any desire for a decent overdrive tone? Anyway,don't be deceived by the cheap power stuff. While a watt is technically a watt cheap watts don't seem to be as loud most of the time. Lots of optimistic rating in this cheap stuff,plus junky,cheap,innefficient speakers. Why not buy something used that is actually decent quality? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members batotman Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Yeah thats true. I had a 65W Crate and while I thought it sounded actually fairly good, the speaker blew within a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members utterhack Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by mysterybat35 Basically I want something with more than 100 watts , with a price range of $180-$280 bucks... Could care less about effects .. All I need is something to do gigs with for volume without going broke. It's time, I think, to roll out the quick volume vs. headroom lesson. There's some difference between the max volume output of a 60W amp and a 100W amp, but not much. Both will happily rip out your eardrums and dance on their tiny graves. The significant difference is in clean headroom: a 100W amp will stay clean a lot longer. To test this, you may want to stand in front of a Fender Twin and see how loud you need to crank it to get something approximating an overdrive tone. The relevant nontechnical measure, stolen verbatim from eMusician.com because I'm lazy and couldn't find anything better in 90 seconds of googling: You need to decrease the wattage of a guitar amp by a factor of ten to reduce the perceived volume by half. That means the amp that sounds half as loud as a 100W amp isn't a 50W amp; it's a 10W amp. And for an amplifier to sound half as loud as a 10W amp, it would need to be a 1W amp. [emphasis mine] Sorry if any of this sounds condescending, or if I'm misunderstanding what you're looking for. The whole power/volume/headroom thing isn't necessarily intuitive to us mere musicians, and salesfolk usually aren't much help with it either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarNed Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Utterhack's post about amp wattage vs. volume is correct, and important. Something else that's misunderstood: speaker wattage. A combo amp or cab will often be described has having "two 60 watt speakers," or "one 30 watt speaker" and so forth. This refers mostly to the speaker's power-handling ability. This is not the same at all as how much power is actually being fed to the speaker. So, for example, a "60 watt" speaker" should be able to handle near-continuous loads of up to 60 watts without breaking or being damaged. The actual amp (if the speaker is part of a combo amp) may only generate 15 or 30 watts. There is another aspect to speaker wattage. To some extent, it can describe the point at which speakers begin to "break up," or distort the sound they generate. Believe it or not, speaker breakup is often considered desirable in guitar speakers. Boutique or speciality speaker manufacturers, such as Weber, will often give customers an idea of the breakup characteristics of a particular model speaker. I have my eye on a pair of Weber 30 watt Alincos for my Peavey 212 50 watt amp, in part because I think I'll get a bit of natural speaker breakup without having to blow out my ears. I might not be right about that hope! If you want a cheap loud amp, well God bless you. Just shop for the most watts per dollar and place your order! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GilmourD Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by guitarNed Utterhack's post about amp wattage vs. volume is correct, and important. Something else that's misunderstood: speaker wattage. A combo amp or cab will often be described has having "two 60 watt speakers," or "one 30 watt speaker" and so forth. This refers mostly to the speaker's power-handling ability. This is not the same at all as how much power is actually being fed to the speaker. So, for example, a "60 watt" speaker" should be able to handle near-continuous loads of up to 60 watts without breaking or being damaged. The actual amp (if the speaker is part of a combo amp) may only generate 15 or 30 watts. There is another aspect to speaker wattage. To some extent, it can describe the point at which speakers begin to "break up," or distort the sound they generate. Believe it or not, speaker breakup is often considered desirable in guitar speakers. Boutique or speciality speaker manufacturers, such as Weber, will often give customers an idea of the breakup characteristics of a particular model speaker. I have my eye on a pair of Weber 30 watt Alincos for my Peavey 212 50 watt amp, in part because I think I'll get a bit of natural speaker breakup without having to blow out my ears. I might not be right about that hope! If you want a cheap loud amp, well God bless you. Just shop for the most watts per dollar and place your order! In addition to this, remeber: 100 watts is only twice as loud as 10 watts. So, that means that the 120 watt amp you want is only twice as loud as a 12 watter. It usually takes about 35 watts of power with an efficient speaker to compete with a drummer, and I usually recommend a 50 watter if the drummer's loud. Truth be told... My brother's an obscenely loud drummer... And I get by with my 50 watt Bassman head (silverface modded with the AA864 blackface circuit) on my Peavey 412MS 4x12 cabinet and the volume on 5-6. My brother's Line6 Flextone IIIXL is 2x75watts stereo (150 total), but the volume doesn't really budge past 2-3 in that sort of situation. Could've gone for the 75watt mono version of the FlexyIII, but 2x12 sound beafier than a single 12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sonnilon Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Rogue and Crate both sound like shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members funkywrench Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by GilmourD In addition to this, remeber: 100 watts is only twice as loud as 10 watts. So, that means that the 120 watt amp you want is only twice as loud as a 12 watter. It usually takes about 35 watts of power with an efficient speaker to compete with a drummer, and I usually recommend a 50 watter if the drummer's loud. Truth be told... My brother's an obscenely loud drummer... And I get by with my 50 watt Bassman head (silverface modded with the AA864 blackface circuit) on my Peavey 412MS 4x12 cabinet and the volume on 5-6. My brother's Line6 Flextone IIIXL is 2x75watts stereo (150 total), but the volume doesn't really budge past 2-3 in that sort of situation. Could've gone for the 75watt mono version of the FlexyIII, but 2x12 sound beafier than a single 12. I think we're also forgetting that MB35 seems to be looking at solid-state amps and many here are talking about tube amps. In general tube amps tend to be 3 or 4 times louder than their solid-state cousins. So a 15 watt tube amp would probably be as loud as 60 watt solid state amp. (This is generally speaking, perhaps someone else with a bit more knowledge on the subject can elaborate this post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Darkstorm Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 I'll take 50 qaulity watts over 100 cheap qaulity amp ones any day. Rogue is just cheap qaulity in all regards, speakers included. A qaulity 50 watt amp for examplecan handle a 4 ohm load. A cheap amp cant. Also concider qaulity of sound. Qaulity sound with 35 watts beats 120 watts poor qaulty and lousy qaulity speaker any day. Those who like roague amps are likeing cheap prices and 100 watt rating. A 30 watt marshal valestate or crate is better qaulity sound, build, and speaker then rogue. Every rogue product I've seen, wether amp, guitar, or otherwise has been horrible qaulity. Only good for the excercise of walk it to dumpster. Yeah if all I had was 2 inch speaker mini battery power "amp" and "upgraded" to 12 inch speaker 100 watt roague I'd prob concider it nice too. Till I compared it to crate, peavey or any other name brands 35 watt combo amp. At best its like comparring a 100 watt $100 boombox to a $1,000 100watt home stereo with seperate componants. 100watt boomboxmay be better then 5 watt clock radio. But thats it. Rogue is like very very cheap clock radio grade qaulity. Wattage headroom is important for bass guitars and low freq instruments like synths. But guitars dont do lows and thus headroom isnt really that important. Unless your dealing with poorqaulity amp which starts clipping otherwise at very low wattage. Clipping is not musical distortion. Big difference. If you think you need at least 100 watts for guitar, youve never experienced qaulity amp. Only amps that start clipping easy. Again clipping is very diff from musical distortion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members utterhack Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 So now that we've established that we don't recommend SS rogue/crate etc etc... What WOULD we do if we needed an amp to play out with a full band and had $300 bucks to spend? Let's get myterybat35 rockin'! :thu: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members guitarbilly74 Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by utterhack What WOULD we do if we needed an amp to play out with a full band and had $300 bucks to spend? at this price range he should definitely buy an USED amp. I'd recommend the Fender Princeton 210 or the FM212R. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ColourOfFire Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 For that budget I'd probably look for a peavy transtube or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GilmourD Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by funkywrench I think we're also forgetting that MB35 seems to be looking at solid-state amps and many here are talking about tube amps.In general tube amps tend to be 3 or 4 times louder than their solid-state cousins. So a 15 watt tube amp would probably be as loud as 60 watt solid state amp. (This is generally speaking, perhaps someone else with a bit more knowledge on the subject can elaborate this post) Makes no difference. Wattage is wattage. It's an electrical function. The problem is that cheap solid state amps get less efficient speakers, which kill volume. However, the output wattage is the same. P = IVwhere P = power in watts I = current in amperes V = potential difference in volts I've heard this old wives tale go both ways. Some people say that, given a wattage, solid state is louder. Others say that tubes are louder. It's bubkis. If you take a properly rated 100 watt tube amp and a properly rated 100 watt solid state amp and run them through the same speaker setup, they should have the same SPL (sound pressure level). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by GilmourD Makes no difference.Wattage is wattage. It's an electrical function. The problem is that cheap solid state amps get less efficient speakers, which kill volume. However, the output wattage is the same.I've heard this old wives tale go both ways. Some people say that, given a wattage, solid state is louder. Others say that tubes are louder. It's bubkis.If you take a properly rated 100 watt tube amp and a properly rated 100 watt solid state amp and run them through the same speaker setup, they should have the same SPL (sound pressure level). Yes,exactly,up to 100 watts. Beyond that,the SS sound falls apart and sounds hideous ordinarily,whereas the tube amp will continue to sound musical and pleasing well beyond that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by Archdemon Rogue and Crate both sound like shit. Could you list the Crate amps that you have/haven't played through? Have you played through any of the Vintage Clubs? V-series or Paliminos? Stealths? Blue Voo Doo/Red Rocker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GilmourD Posted April 30, 2006 Members Share Posted April 30, 2006 Originally posted by tlbonehead Yes,exactly,up to 100 watts. Beyond that,the SS sound falls apart and sounds hideous ordinarily,whereas the tube amp will continue to sound musical and pleasing well beyond that point. Well, it all depends on the design of the amp and how it's affected by the Fletcher-Monson Effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_effect EDIT:However, we're not talking about tone, here, we're talking about sheer volume. I'm not a big fan of solid state outside of Line6 stuff. The power amp is probably closer to a PA power amp in that, because all the tone generation is happening inside what is considered the "preamp" even though it has emulation of the power amp. Not very far from what Eddie Van Halen did when he hooked his Marshalls up to a 20ohm dummy load which fed his effects, which then went into 400 watt H&H power amps, which fed his 4x12s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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