My recent ethical dilemma

[MrKnobs]

And if you don't have a great player, you are still better off using a click IMO, because the editing possibilities that are opened up to you, .

 

No man, just no.

 

You don't kill a player's performance just for your own convenience in editing. Most people simply cannot play to a click with good feel and forcing them to is a sure way to ruin a track and waste everyone's time.

 

Terry D.

[Phil O'Keefe]

As far as deciding to forgo a click track, and that preventing you from flying things from one verse to another one later in the song, I don't believe even that is true anymore - true, you may not be able to do a instant copy / paste and have things line up perfectly as you probably could if you were using a click track and a constant tempo across the entire length of the song, but with modern editing and time compression / expansion tools, you can still "fly" parts around and edit them to make them fit if that becomes an unavoidable necessity.

Even if we're using a click track, frequently, I want that to vary a bit... push it up a BPM or two going into the chorus, pull it back a bit on the verse, etc. etc. Let it ebb and flow a bit; breathe a bit. A lot of the time, that can accentuate the musicality of the track IMHO.

[MrJoshua]

I think sometimes we tend to focus too much on the technical part of what we're doing, and forget that the whole point of this is to record music. If the click makes it sound good, use it; otherwise, don't use it. If cutting and pasting makes it sound good, fantastic. Whatever. The point is to record the song, right?

That's probably why I just do this as a hobby.

[SkullCap]

I think sometimes we tend to focus too much on the technical part of what we're doing, and forget that the whole point of this is to record music. If the click makes it sound good, use it; otherwise, don't use it. If cutting and pasting makes it sound good, fantastic. Whatever. The point is to record the song, right? That's probably why I just do this as a hobby.

Well said. Yes, I feel the same...the point is to record the song, get the best performance possible with or w/o a click.

[UstadKhanAli]

No man, just no. You don't kill a player's performance just for your own convenience in editing. Most people simply cannot play to a click with good feel and forcing them to is a sure way to ruin a track and waste everyone's time.

That's right. Thank you. You play to musician's strengths, not their weaknesses. I know I keep saying this over and over, but isn't this just beyond obvious? If someone cannot play to a click, you have alternatives. If they still can't play to click alternatives, you still have tempo/click map alternatives. Why, then, with all these alternatives, would you EVER dictate that someone must play to a click when they cannot?

And this is all assuming that you want everything lock-stepped together and completely steady in the first place, something you might not want to do if you are recording Javenese gamelan, classical music, jazz, progressive rock, folk, bluegrass, or quite a number of other styles.

And again, to repeat myself even further, I must emphasize that this is not an old school/new school issue. It's playing to the musician's strengths and nothing else.

[UstadKhanAli]

I think sometimes we tend to focus too much on the technical part of what we're doing, and forget that the whole point of this is to record music. If the click makes it sound good, use it; otherwise, don't use it. If cutting and pasting makes it sound good, fantastic. Whatever. The point is to record the song, right?

That's the whole idea, yes. And this philosophy/aproach usually works until you get the bean counters involved!

[Taylor Davis]

The drums were not done to the techs specs.
the tech wishes to have a NEAR PERFECT take to work with.
the drummer is unable to work with a click and failed miserably and the band did'nt notice.
the tech needs something SOLID to work with and wishes to redo the drums.
the tech failed miserably.
the band failed to instruct the drummer as to the level of expectation involved.
this came about because of inexperience from all the parties involved.

simple mistakes from inexperienced folkes which led to a clusterfork.

SO simply fix all the mistakes and do it as efficiently as possible
Redo the drum tracks useing the main rythyms already tracked.
it's NORMAL to sometimes need twenty or thirty or fourty or fifty takes to get that goode one.

it's normal to make simple mistakes when one is inexperienced.

I like doing one-offs of entire parts, no over dubs but I've learned to punch in and out as needed when it's needed.

seam it all together and lock it in the can.

thanks for lettin me share.
TD

[locust tree]

That's right. Thank you. You play to musician's strengths , not their weaknesses . I know I keep saying this over and over, but isn't this just beyond obvious ? If someone cannot play to a click, you have alternatives. If they still can't play to click alternatives, you still have tempo/click map alternatives. Why, then, with all these alternatives, would you EVER dictate that someone must play to a click when they cannot? And this is all assuming that you want everything lock-stepped together and completely steady in the first place, something you might not want to do if you are recording Javenese gamelan, classical music, jazz, progressive rock, folk, bluegrass, or quite a number of other styles. And again, to repeat myself even further, I must emphasize that this is not an old school/new school issue. It's playing to the musician's strengths and nothing else.

 

 

I assume when you talk about tempo mapping, you mean manually dropping in anchor points at every measure so the tempo map ramps up and down with the performance? Admittedly, it's something I dabbled in with Sonar's Audiosnap feature, and gave up on too easily from frustration. I certainly don't know if I could pull it off during a 30 minute band lunch break... any tips and pointers you have would actually be greatly appreciated.

 

In the bigger picture, Ken, I must stress that that is your opinion. You are still coming off as a bit didactic with your posts and I've tried my best to curb my own preachiness in my recent posts. I actually do agree with you on the subject of jazz, folk, and bluegrass -- in my book these are genres that aren't allowed within 100 miles of a click. I couldn't speak for Javenese gamelan.

 

 

You don't kill a player's performance just for your own convenience in editing. Most people simply cannot play to a click with good feel and forcing them to is a sure way to ruin a track and waste everyone's time.

 

 

I think the implication that I'm killing a player's performance or feel is a bit dramatic. If they have actual feel (I've defined in earlier posts exactly what this means to me) then yes, a click could be detrimental. If by feel you mean rushing during fills, ramping up so every song ends 20-25 bpm faster than it started, playing hopelessly on top of every other player in the band, and any of hundreds of the classic timing problems of inexperienced musicians, then NO, I don't feel bad about having a player fight it out with a click, or making them come to grips with the shortcomings of their own internal timing. I don't care if I have to track every song sectionally because they can't get any further than that without falling off the horse-- a quantized, lifeless performance is still better IMO than one that is just plain amateurish! That's my approach and my opinion and it's one of many. It doesn't mean I don't respect people like Ken and their way of working -- in fact, I'm sure I'll probably employ those methods one day to great success -- but when it comes to players who just plain suck, I am not a "feel-good" or "pat you on the back" kind of guy.

 

And Terry, I should mention that my experiences differ drastically from yours. In my estimation, roughly 80% of the players I've tracked who had never worked with a click were able to get the hang of it in 30 minutes or less. I tracked a drummer today actually who'd never played to one before. He did fine, and it was because he walked in knowing his bands' songs forward and backward, he knew his instrument and what he could get out of it, and he had a halfway decent (to be sure, it was nowhere near great) sense of meter. I would really like you to give me one instance where a player simply could not, would not play to a click for more than 16 bars, but when you turned it off all the notes fell into place and the pocket opened up. I'm not being an *sshole, I am truly asking because the scope of your experience extends further than mine. In my personal experience, the aforementioned situation is a rarity of rarities.

 

I really think we may all have to agree to disagree on this one. I know of a handful of amazingly successful pro studios around here that, to my knowledge, are click only. If you walk in not knowing how to play to one, today's your lucky day because you're gonna learn. The key is that their clientele are mostly rock. (Do you really think that approach would work for a bebop piano trio?) I know of at least one of those studios where it's not uncommon for bands to have recorded their entire catalog there because they are so consistently pleased with the finished product. So if nothing else, accept that your way is not the only way.

[barny15]

Interesting thread. I read every post.

 

I don't really have much to say that hasn't been said already, but I'll add a couple of cents.

 

Years ago I played drums for your average hick bar band. The first time I ever entered a studio was with these guys to record a three-song demo. The studio owner/engineer had me play to a click track, which not only made me nervous, but was an extremely challenging task as it felt completely unnatural. I easily could have played the drum parts for the three songs we recorded out of thin air without even the band backing me and had been within 1 bpm of my original starting tempo, but because the engineer insisted on recording my parts to a click track so he could edit the parts easier (edit what, I have no idea), it took me about 15 takes per song (since every time I was literally a millisecond off from the click he'd stop the take and have me start over) and an extra 2 hours of studio time to track. I finally got the drum parts down to the engineer's liking, but what a pain. I felt like a {censored}ty drummer for a long time afterward, all because I couldn't do something that wasn't natural for a drummer to begin with. My feeling on the matter is that a client shouldn't have to pay for two (or more) hours of studio time to learn to play to a click.

 

The only other thing I have to say is that there are plenty of engineers and producers that have made a huge name for themselves without having a drummer play to a click track.

[MrJoshua]

I've never understood why it's so HARD for musicians to play a rock tune to a click, I suppose (and in this case I'm speaking strictly of standard, generic, one-tempo-through-the-whole-song rock tunes). Doesn't anyone practice with a metronome anymore? Locking in with a click is just like locking in with a guy playing cowbell or wood block, or tambourine.

In the studio I'll do whatever I need to do to get the best performance out of the musicians, but as a musician it drives me nuts when a guy who says he's been playing drums for ten years can't seem to play to a click.

But to reiterate, yeah, do whatever makes the song sound best.

[Phil O'Keefe]

Doesn't anyone practice with a metronome anymore? Locking in with a click is just like locking in with a guy playing cowbell or wood block, or tambourine.

 

BAM! Nail head, meet hammer.

 

Playing to a click is no different than playing to another musician, except the "click dude" has incredibly steady time. It's exactly like rehearsing to a metronome... or, for that matter, playing along to one of your favorite songs; something I did a lot of when I was a teenager - I used to spend hours after school just playing along with the radio and records.

 

I'm not saying that using a click is always the right decision from a musical standpoint, but if you can't play to a click if you have to, then it calls into question your ability to listen to other musicians a bit, and / or your ability to hold a steady tempo. On the type of song you're talking about MrJoshua, tracking with a click might not always be the right choice, but it certainly should be difficult for any reasonably competent musician to do...

[BATCAT]

I've never understood why it's so HARD for musicians to play a rock tune to a click, I suppose (and in this case I'm speaking strictly of standard, generic, one-tempo-through-the-whole-song rock tunes). Doesn't anyone practice with a metronome anymore? Locking in with a click is just like locking in with a guy playing cowbell or wood block, or tambourine. In the studio I'll do whatever I need to do to get the best performance out of the musicians, but as a musician it drives me nuts when a guy who says he's been playing drums for ten years can't seem to play to a click. But to reiterate, yeah, do whatever makes the song sound best.

FWIW, I'm a drummer that's preferred to record with a click for the last seven years or so. I find it makes everything so much easier to not have to worry that I'm rushing or dragging somewhere in the song...

[barny15]

 

I've never understood why it's so HARD for musicians to play a rock tune to a click, I suppose (and in this case I'm speaking strictly of standard, generic, one-tempo-through-the-whole-song rock tunes). Doesn't anyone practice with a metronome anymore? Locking in with a click is just like locking in with a guy playing cowbell or wood block, or tambourine.

It's not necessarily a natural thing for drummers to do, especially if said drummer is only used to playing with guitar players and not metronomes. And I'd argue that playing to a click isn't quite like playing with a tambourine/cowbell player since it's much more organic and visual to do so.

 

 

Doesn't anyone practice with a metronome anymore?

I used to practice piano to a metronome when I was a kid taking piano lessons. I've never practiced drums to a metronome; I usually practice with a guitar player. I'm sure a lot of good drummers out there have never seen one.

 

 

In the studio I'll do whatever I need to do to get the best performance out of the musicians, but as a musician it drives me nuts when a guy who says he's been playing drums for ten years can't seem to play to a click.

I tend to think that it's intimidating for some drummers (can't speak for all) to play to a click in the studio. "OMG, what if I'm off by a slight bit? Then I have to redo the whole take." Makes it kind of hard to concentrate on your drum part when you're thinking about that click the whole time. It's not an impossible task for a decent drummer to play to a click track, but it's also not impossible for a decent drummer to get a good drum take without a click track.

 

I guess I just don't understand why a drummer who keeps perfectly good time needs to play to a click in a studio. If an engineer wants the drums to be that precise, why don't they just use some drum samples and a drum sequencer or some drum loops and be done with it?

 

EDIT: This suddenly reminds me of what I've done in the past to get songs in tempo. A lot of times, I've recorded a basic guitar part first to a drum loop that's in time with the song, then played the guitar part through the headphones while the drummer tracks. Why don't more engineers do that instead? It's more natural for a drummer who isn't used to a click to play with a guitar track.

[MarkGifford-1]

Interesting thread. I read every post. I don't really have much to say that hasn't been said already, but I'll add a couple of cents. Years ago I played drums for your average hick bar band. The first time I ever entered a studio was with these guys to record a three-song demo. The studio owner/engineer had me play to a click track, which not only made me nervous, but was an extremely challenging task as it felt completely unnatural. I easily could have played the drum parts for the three songs we recorded out of thin air without even the band backing me and had been within 1 bpm of my original starting tempo, but because the engineer insisted on recording my parts to a click track so he could edit the parts easier (edit what, I have no idea), it took me about 15 takes per song (since every time I was literally a millisecond off from the click he'd stop the take and have me start over) and an extra 2 hours of studio time to track. I finally got the drum parts down to the engineer's liking, but what a pain. I felt like a {censored}ty drummer for a long time afterward, all because I couldn't do something that wasn't natural for a drummer to begin with. My feeling on the matter is that a client shouldn't have to pay for two (or more) hours of studio time to learn to play to a click. The only other thing I have to say is that there are plenty of engineers and producers that have made a huge name for themselves without having a drummer play to a click track.

 

 

That would be a classic example of an engineer doing everything wrong...

 

You guys who insist that everyone play to a click explain to me anything positive that came out of that session?

 

The ability to play w/a click is a strawman, in this discussion - the real question is: Other than making it easier for the engineer, what does insisting on a click accomplish?

 

I suppose you could say that it allows crappy players to make acceptable recordings, but that's why the industry is where it is, today...

 

I'm not anti-click at all, I use them all the time. But, it's a fact that the click evolved solely to make engineering/production easier, not for any musical reason.

 

MG

[MrJoshua]

The click is supposed to just give the drummer a tempo. That's all. I don't even notice the click when I'm playing to one - if you're listening to the click, you're doing it wrong. You're not supposed to listen to it; you're supposed to play with it. I mean, when you're playing with a guitarist, you don't spend all your time listening to the guitarist to make sure that you're dead-on with everything, right? Of course not; it would be silly. You focus on your performance, and you just stay aware of the guitarist in the back of your mind, just enough to know you're both together.

It's the same thing with a click. When you're playing to one you should just be playing along, like there's a guy in the control room laying down a lame quarter-note wood block part while you're on the drums (or guitar or bass or whatever). It's just there to give you a tempo.

It just seems like being able to play along with a metronome or click without giving a bad performance would be one of the first things an aspiring studio musician would want to master.

I'm not saying I'm classically-trained or anything like that (and when it comes to drums I'm basically a hack - I'm mostly a bass player), but when I was learning it was always emphasized to start slow and focus on staying on the tempo, and THEN after the rock-steady tempo was achieved to start work on adding feel to the part. These days it seems like everyone goes the other way. Like if you have "feeling" who cares that you can't hold a steady beat? I just don't get that at all. But that's just me, and it's really beside the point.

[barny15]

It's the same thing with a click. When you're playing to one you should just be playing along, like there's a guy in the control room laying down a lame quarter-note wood block part while you're on the drums (or guitar or bass or whatever).

To me, it's one of those things where it's probably easier said than done, at least in my experiences.

It just seems like being able to play along with a metronome or click without giving a bad performance would be one of the first things an aspiring studio musician would want to master.

I can sort of get behind you on this statement. If you're a musician who wants to do nothing else but session playing in a studio, then sure, you might want that to be the first thing you aspire to. For the average working musician, there might be better things to concentrate on than playing a beat to a metronome for the two or three times a year you might enter a studio.

I'm not saying I'm classically-trained or anything like that (and when it comes to drums I'm basically a hack - I'm mostly a bass player), but when I was learning it was always emphasized to start slow and focus on staying on the tempo, and THEN after the rock-steady tempo was achieved to start work on adding feel to the part. These days it seems like everyone goes the other way. Like if you have "feeling" who cares that you can't hold a steady beat? I just don't get that at all. But that's just me, and it's really beside the point.

That's cool. We're likely just at opposite ends of the spectrum on the issue, which is just fine.

[MrJoshua]

That's cool. We're likely just at opposite ends of the spectrum on the issue, which is just fine.

Fair enough. I've just always been of the school of thought that if you want to be a rhythm player (be it bass, drums, or guitar, or tuba ... whatever) then you needed to be a rock when it came to holding the tempo.

Bad player - has emotion, but no tempo
Fair player - has tempo, but no emotion
Good player - has tempo, and can still fit some emotion in
Great player - can make you laugh and cry while dancing all over the beat, while keeping a rock-steady tempo.

But that, like everything I say, is just a personal opinion. And I certainly don't mean any disrespect toward anyone else's opinion or how they approach music. It's music. If we all did it the same way, it'd be called math.

[Lee Knight]

For the average working musician, there might be better things to concentrate on than playing a beat to a metronome...

 

 

 

I disagree with this for many reasons. I'd say, if you don't want to use a click, then you better, "concentrate on playing a beat to a metronome". Practicing with a metronome gives a player so much more of an authorities feel.

 

To click or not to click... I absolutely agree with both sides. But for guys that can't play to a click? Pfff. A good musician has good time. If he doesn't, he's not a good musician.

 

Of course we'll need to accommodate the guy who isn't good at playing to a click, but in reality, in a perfect world, the reason to not choose a click would hopefully be for artistic concerns and not because a guy is too much of a hack to hang with it.

[locust tree]

Doesn't anyone practice with a metronome anymore? Locking in with a click is just like locking in with a guy playing cowbell or wood block, or tambourine. BAM! Nail head, meet hammer. Playing to a click is no different than playing to another musician, except the "click dude" has incredibly steady time. It's exactly like rehearsing to a metronome... or, for that matter, playing along to one of your favorite songs; something I did a lot of when I was a teenager - I used to spend hours after school just playing along with the radio and records. I'm not saying that using a click is always the right decision from a musical standpoint, but if you can't play to a click if you have to, then it calls into question your ability to listen to other musicians a bit, and / or your ability to hold a steady tempo. On the type of song you're talking about MrJoshua, tracking with a click might not always be the right choice, but it certainly should be difficult for any reasonably competent musician to do...

This is exactly what I've been saying - people who can't play to a click have some naggling issue, somewhere, with how they hear and feel time. This is also why there is something that just doesn't add up about barny's posts. With all due respect, it's hard to imagine that the click during your session could have been that much of a dealbreaker, yet without it you could have stayed with in 1 bpm () of your starting tempo? It's a lofty claim. Have you ever tempo mapped a recording of yours to see how much you sped up from beginning to end to prove it? I have with a few tracks I've laid down... it was an eye opener for sure.

I'm not anti-click at all, I use them all the time. But, it's a fact that the click evolved solely to make engineering/production easier, not for any musical reason.

That's a bit of a bold statement, don't ya think? The metronome as a practice tool surely predates the predominance of the click as production tool. Not saying that it doesn't help greatly, or that somewhere down the line someone probably realized that and exploited it, but I would disagree with anyone who thinks its purpose is that singular...

Here's another nugget. Something that's been repeated many times in the thread is, "you don't make the player uncomfortable simply for YOUR ease of editing." Have you guys considered the psychological effect, from a player's standpoint, of knowing that there's no mistake an engineer can't fix? I honestly don't know what "player discomfort" you speak of, because the first time I ever recorded drums with a true "mad scientist" engineer behind the board, it was actually a HUGE comfort knowing that he could fix the little mistakes that had plagued all my previous performances when I had recorded with other engineers. And you know the mistakes I'm talking about... the great takes with one little stray note that no one else hears but you... Once I knew he could fix that, I laid down some of the best takes of my life because the pressure was finally off. To those who think I'm strapping unwitting players to some kind of torture device... have you ever considered using it as an antidote for red light syndrome?

[barny15]

To click or not to click... I absolutely agree with both sides. But for guys that can't play to a click? Pfff. A good musician has good time. If he doesn't, he's not a good musician.

I agree with you that a good musician has good time, but for plenty of good musicians, playing to a click track is awkward and unnatural, myself included (and I have rock solid time). I'm not really arguing that a good musician shouldn't have good timing; rather, I'm arguing that a click track is unnecessary if a drummer already has good timing. And if a drummer has trouble with the timing while tracking in the studio, there are much better (and sometimes faster) ways to get a solid drum track than having him fight a click track for 2 hours and 18 takes just to get a drum track "right" just for the sake and "convenience" of an overly-anal engineer.

 

I also stand behind my statement that there are better things for a musician to do than practice to a click track. Sure, it might be a good thing to try once in awhile, but it's not the most important thing a musician can do to improve upon their performance.

 

I'll say this: Plenty of good studio engineers can engineer and mix a great recording without a click track, just as plenty of good drummers can play a great drum track with a click.

[barny15]

This is exactly what I've been saying - people who can't play to a click have some naggling issue, somewhere, with how they hear and feel time. This is also why there is something that just doesn't add up about barny's posts. With all due respect, it's hard to imagine that the click during your session could have been that much of a dealbreaker, yet without it you could have stayed with in 1 bpm ( ) of your starting tempo? It's a lofty claim.

It might seem like a "lofty claim", but a lot of musicians have really solid time even without a click. The click was in fact a dealbreaker for me because I had never played drums to one up to that point (or since). It was unnatural and awkward for me. Also, to make the claim that drummers who can't play to a click have "some naggling issue" is a bit unfair as well. Kind of a base statement. I hope you weren't directing it directly at me. I took piano lessons for years as a kid, and spent a lot of time practicing to a metronome, so it's not like I was a stranger to keeping time to a click. But in a studio setting while playing drums, it's not impossible to see how it would be difficult and awkward for some.

 

I dunno, I guess my feeling on the matter is that engineers should capture the best possible sounds and leave the performing aspect of a session up to the musicians.

 

In your case locust tree, was the drummer for your session actually a decent drummer and just had a problem with the click, or was he a beginner? Did you try recording him without a click to find out if he really couldn't keep time well? If he truly just wasn't all that practiced of a drummer, then I could see how recording him would be frustrating. It would be (and has been) for me as well. As an engineer, getting a good drum performance and sound is one of my top priorities when recording. My suggestion would be that if you really insist on having a drummer play to a set tempo but they're having trouble with a click, have a guitarist record a scratch track to a looping drum beat set at a specific tempo, then play the guitar track through the headphones rather than the click. I've done that in the past, and it always works out a lot better for the drummer since it's more natural sounding than a click. At any rate, you did do the right thing by telling the band about your issue with the drums and letting them decide if they wanted you to replace the drums on your own or not free of charge rather than doing it without telling them. I'd be curious to hear how the band handles the situation.

[UstadKhanAli]

I assume when you talk about tempo mapping, you mean manually dropping in anchor points at every measure so the tempo map ramps up and down with the performance? Admittedly, it's something I dabbled in with Sonar's Audiosnap feature, and gave up on too easily from frustration. I certainly don't know if I could pull it off during a 30 minute band lunch break... any tips and pointers you have would actually be greatly appreciated.

 

I use PT, so I can't offer any tips in other DAWs, but with multi-tracked drums, I've literally just learned how to use Elastic Time. If I activate this mode, it reads the tracks for a short amount of time, after which I can simply put in the tempo. The program drops in anchor points - Warp Points in "PT talk" - which you can manipulate manually if you wish. The "hits" (transient peaks) now conform to the tempo map. I can speed them up, slow them down, and do whatever I wish. I can control the tempo globally, for each part, whatever. So not only can I do this in a 30 minute lunch break, I can do it quickly enough that I have enough time for my lunch as well.

 

In the bigger picture, Ken, I must stress that that is your opinion. You are still coming off as a bit didactic with your posts and I've tried my best to curb my own preachiness in my recent posts. I actually do agree with you on the subject of jazz, folk, and bluegrass -- in my book these are genres that aren't allowed within 100 miles of a click. I couldn't speak for Javenese gamelan.

 

It is NOT an opinion that there are substitutes for clicks. It is NOT an opinion that there are tempo/click maps or Elastic Time. These are facts, and are used every day by us "hack engineers".

 

You keep asserting that your way is the only way to go, while ignoring much of our posts. You could mention why making someone play to a click is better than a shaker or tambourine on a drum machine, or using Elastic Time, or playing to a drum loop. But instead, you keep simply insisting that your way is best while ignoring this.

 

If you are going to have a discussion, address our points instead of ignoring them while digging your heels in or I'll simply repeat my points again since you've repeated yours. I fail to see how I any more didactic than you when you keep insisting on the same thing while I keep offering alternatives that you never address. And besides, you're the one who insulted us by calling us "hack engineers" if we didn't do it your way in the first place, so all in all, I've been far more polite than you have. If you want me to be "less didactic", then try showing some respect.

 

BTW, you're the only one who has ever mentioned accused me of being didactic in the many years I've posted on HC or Musicplayer, so you might want to consider this.

 

And finally, you brought up this subject. Don't bring it up if you don't want to hear opinions that counter yours.

[UstadKhanAli]

It might seem like a "lofty claim", but a lot of musicians have really solid time even without a click. The click was in fact a dealbreaker for me because I had never played drums to one up to that point (or since). It was unnatural and awkward for me. Also, to make the claim that drummers who can't play to a click have " some naggling issue" is a bit unfair as well. Kind of a base statement. I hope you weren't directing it directly at me .

 

 

I agree wholeheartedly with you. I've tracked some really good drummers who simply haven't played with a click (or metronome) very much. While this strikes me as somewhat odd, as I am classically trained on piano and frequently practiced to a metronome, well, rock is different. They have their internal rhythm or are used to playing with an ensemble, and if they play really well that way, cool! We as engineers of course want to capture them playing as best they can, so we need to be flexible.

[Phil O'Keefe]

This suddenly reminds me of what I've done in the past to get songs in tempo. A lot of times, I've recorded a basic guitar part first to a drum loop that's in time with the song, then played the guitar part through the headphones while the drummer tracks. Why don't more engineers do that instead? It's more natural for a drummer who isn't used to a click to play with a guitar track.

 

I'd personally consider that song to have been recorded with a click, even though what the drummer played to was another instrument that was recorded to that click / time reference, and not directly to the click itself. Ken has mentioned "substitutes" for the actual click.. a loop, a shaker or tambourine, etc. and to me, this is just another one of the countless possibilities in terms of substitution.

 

I'll say this: Plenty of good studio engineers can engineer and mix a great recording without a click track, just as plenty of good drummers can play a great drum track with a click.

 

I agree with this completely.

 

However, while I'm never one to force a click upon a band or drummer, I would never go so far as to say they are without their uses, or that they should never be used in any form. Practicing to a click or metronome is a basic, fundamental practice method that has been used in music instruction for ages now, and IMO, for good reason. The development of listening skills, the ability to play with others and the development of a good sense of time are all pretty important to one's development as a musician. If you spend time practicing to a metronome, you'll usually have a better feel for time, and whether or not you're pushing or dragging it.

 

Computers allow us to take this even further... put a click track into your DAW, and have the tempo slowly increase, or decrease over time, with several bars of steady tempo interspersed between the accelerandos and ritardandos, and then practice playing along with that every day for a month or two - I guarantee if you do, your ability to hold a steady tempo, or create or follow intentional changes in tempo will dramatically improve - even when you take away the metronome or click reference.

[UstadKhanAli]

(in response to Phil's post about a click being originated for the ease of engineers/producers) That's a bit of a bold statement, don't ya think? The metronome as a practice tool surely predates the predominance of the click as production tool. Not saying that it doesn't help greatly, or that somewhere down the line someone probably realized that and exploited it, but I would disagree with anyone who thinks its purpose is that singular...

 

Yeah, I don't know where the metronome/click thing originates, so I can't comment on that. But I believe there's some forms of music (disco, funk, dance, whatever) that in the past has benefited from someone playing to a click or drum machine or loop ('course, more of that early stuff was then subsequently tape-looped than some people realize!! ). Much of that was played to a click/drum machine/loop, the idea being to keep the tempo good and solid for dancing. Not all dance music by any stretch, but a lot.

 

I don't know whether it was made for the ease of engineers...I just don't know the history.

 

For classical piano lessons, I played to a metronome. This helped greatly for time, so consequently, when I got into rock bands, I had no problem playing to a click whether playing guitar or keyboards. And to be honest, I did (do) find it a little odd that I meet drummers who don't practice to metronomes. But you know, whatcha gonna do????