Members albiedamned Posted February 1, 2009 Members Share Posted February 1, 2009 I'm looking into purchasing a new guitar amp for my home studio. It would be used almost exclusively for recording, with possibly an occasional trip to a friend's place for a jam session. But almost certainly no gigging. I've done a ton of research including searching the HC Amps and Guitars forums, but I'm posting this here because I'm more interested in getting opinions from a recording point of view. Right now I have a Valve Junior (series 3), which I upgraded with JJ tubes (from Eurotubes.com) including swapping the 12AX7 with a 12AT7 to get more clean overhead. It sounds pretty good, but there are definitely some things which I don't like about it. It's really small, which makes placing multiple mics difficult. I'd like a 12" speaker instead of a 10", both for better bass response and for easier multi-mic placement. The spring clip which holds the EL84 tube in place tends to vibrate at higher volumes, and the mics definitely pick that up. And finally, I'm just not crazy about its clean sound. My research has led me in the direction of Fender, with the idea being to get something with a top notch clean sound, and use pedals for distortion. I have a pretty good pedal collection already, including a Jekyll & Hyde, a Sparkle Drive, and a Big Muff. At this point I'm thinking either the '65 Princeton Reverb Reissue or the '65 Deluxe Reverb Reissue. They seem extremely similar, with the exact same tube complement. A mark against the Princeton is that it only has a 10" speaker; the Deluxe has a 12". The Princeton is $50 cheaper, which doesn't hurt but is not a major factor. The Deluxe has a second channel for use with the reverb and vibrato, which just seems odd - I have no idea whether this is a plus or a minus. The Deluxe is quite a bit louder, which is probably a minus for me. The Deluxe has a standby switch, which is a minor plus. I've read some people who say that they actually sound quite a bit different, which seems odd given their very similar specs. Those who say that seem to prefer the Princeton. But I've also read that the Princeton has an issue with the cabinet making a nasty vibrating sound when playing a low F#. Of course I do intend to try them both out myself, hopefully later today (but before the Super Bowl starts of course). Does anyone have any experience with these two amps for recording? Are there other amps I should consider? Do you think my approach of looking for a really good clean amp and using pedals for distortion is a good idea? The vibrating tube spring clip problem with my Valve Jr had me thinking that I should get a separate head and cabinet, but I couldn't find any heads that looked right for what I want. The Peavey Classic 30 popped up, but that's an EL84-based amp which I don't think will have that sweet clean Fender sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members albiedamned Posted February 1, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 1, 2009 Darn it - having trouble posting (obviously). Phil or someone, please delete these three empty threads. Sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MrJoshua Posted February 1, 2009 Members Share Posted February 1, 2009 I haven't used those two amps, sorry. I have an Epiphone Galaxie 10 class-A tube combo when I want a small speaker sound, and then I got an Orange Tiny Terror 7W head that I run into an Avatar 2x12 cabinet that I use most of the time. Great amp; it sounds fantastic, and the Celestions in the Avatar really let it sing. It's a pretty good studio rig that will also work for gigs, for under a grand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 The Fender Princeton is, IMHO, one of the finest recording amps ever built. You can get some very cool / high dollar boutique stuff, but as cool as they are, there's not much out there that trumps a good Princeton. YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jimbroni Posted February 1, 2009 Members Share Posted February 1, 2009 Small fender amps are great for recording, because you you drive the snot out of em without being too loud. Aside from the Princeton you mention, a lot of people use Blues Jr's for this application as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jchas Posted February 1, 2009 Members Share Posted February 1, 2009 I just picked up a second Valve Jr. and the guitar player and I played around with different tubes the other night. While they are both rev. 2's, they sounded different with the various tubes. We ended up with a Telefunken 12AX7 in one and a RCA 12AU7 in the other. While the AU7 has decidedly less volume - it's clean stage go's almost to full throttle on the volume pot which really gives you a wide spectrum of clean tone. The other amp on the other hand breaks up at about 1/8 throttle and go's to terribly nasty. Makes for a nice combination though having both to choose from. I've also picked up a 12" Celestion which i'm building a cabinet for (based on an old Carvin design where you can open and close the back) which should sound even better. We also have an original '65 Princeton which is nice, but if I can mod the clean Valve Jr. with a reverb tank the Princeton won't see much use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted February 1, 2009 Members Share Posted February 1, 2009 I don't know very much about the Princeton and some of the smaller Fender amps specifically, but I do know that I've been able to get good sounds out of most Fenders that have come through my door. I have a Carr Rambler. It's not cheap, so you might want to look at something that does the same thing, only is cheaper. It's one of those "boutique" amps, as people love to call them. I don't know. What I do know is that it's low-wattage, and insanely easy to get a great sound from without being too obnoxiously loud (well, it's still loud...). It's switchable between pentode/triode (14/28 watts), 12" speaker, all tube, and sounds freakin' amazing. Whatever it is, get a high-quality small amp, Fender or whatever, and you won't go too wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted February 1, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 1, 2009 The new 4 watt class A Vox I heard at NAMM was absolutely awesome. The demo guy had it dimed and with one of the new Vox guitars plugged straight in, he played Baby O'Reilly. Perfect. Really nice sound. That was with a 10. They do make a head too for 250 bucks. Cheap and great sounding. If you were you I'd get yourself a 1x12 Avatar cab and use it for little combos and heads alike. As a matter of afact, that's what I did. Oh, and I agree, the Princeton is a fantastic sounding little amp. I had a black face years ago and that sound is something I still aspire to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members D Charles Posted February 1, 2009 Members Share Posted February 1, 2009 I really like Deluxe Reverbs. The cool thing about having the extra channel is you can pick up a Cream Machine or some such device and it's got two outs with a footswitch so you run the clean unaltered out to the reverb channel and run the screaming tube sound into the other channel and adjust their tones separately and all. That said, I own a little Fender Vibro Champ from the 60's and two Mesa Boogies; Mark IV and Studio Caliber. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnWTuggle Posted February 1, 2009 Members Share Posted February 1, 2009 Fenders just make some great stuff. I really like as mentioned above, the Princeton, Deluxe, Twin (really too much for a home studio, loud as all get out), Pro junior. Also get a closed back cabinet to run a pro junior to and it sounds really awesome! As will any small fender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members albiedamned Posted February 2, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 2, 2009 Thanks for all the responses so far. Ken, I looked up the Carr Rambler and it sounds like exactly what I'm looking for but it's too expensive. I want to try to stay around a grand or less. I did get to try them both out today, at a local GC, using a PRS SE Singlecut. With all the noise there it's hard to make good assessments. But I thought the Princeton sounded a little clearer to me. Both sounded great, much better than the clean sound I can get from my Valve Jr., but to my ears the Deluxe was just a little muffled sounding compared to the Princeton. I tried both channels on the Deluxe. The Reverb/Vibrato channel seemed to have a little more gain and was maybe a tad brighter, but nothing major. I'm wondering if maybe the smaller speaker is exactly why I thought the Princeton sounded clearer. Maybe bigger speaker = muddier sound. Any thoughts on this, or on recording with 10" speakers vs 12" speakers in general? I think I annoyed everyone in the store by playing the low F# over and over on the Princeton, at different volumes and settings, listening for a buzz. Something was definitely buzzing, but only at pretty high volume and/or with the bass knob cranked up. And even then I couldn't say for sure whether it was the Princeton or one of the other amps on the same shelf. I guess I'd have to take it home to know for sure whether there's a problem. PS Two amusing GC tales: 1) The first PRS SE Singlecut they took off the shelf for me to use didn't work. I had to turn the amp all the way up to 10 to get any sound at all. We swapped cables but that wasn't it, so then we swapped for another PRS and that fixed it. So what did the guy do? He put the first one right back on the shelf. 2) I was mostly playing both of them with the volume around 3 or 4. At one point I cranked the Princeton up to about 7 or 8 to hear how it sounded when breaking up. But believe it or not, one of the GC guys told me to turn it down because they couldn't hear the phone ringing! And this while some kid was "shredding" one aisle over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members barny15 Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 My recommendation would be to look into the already mentioned Fender Blues Jr., a Vox AC15, or an Orange Tiny Terror head/combo. The Fender and the Vox are the cleaner of the three. The Orange is certainly capable of clean, but it's also the best for overdriven/high gain situations if that's a concern (plus it's switchable from 7 to 15 watts). The Orange also doesn't have built-in reverb if that's a problem, and the AC15's reverb is pretty bad, whereas the Blues Jr's reverb sound good. It's hard to find an amp to cover every base, but any of these three will cover a lot of bases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 Thanks for all the responses so far. Ken, I looked up the Carr Rambler and it sounds like exactly what I'm looking for but it's too expensive. I want to try to stay around a grand or less. If the people who come up after my gigs are any indication, the Carr Rambler seems to be what a lot of people are looking for! And unfortunately, they all have the same reaction as you - too expensive. I got it used and it was *still* very expensive. Some years ago, I had really severe debilitating back problems and was on Vicodin and Oxycontin just to function for half a year. I was still gigging and wanted to continue doing so. I wanted an amp that was 40 pounds or lighter, low wattage, but with amazing tone. The Carr Rambler fit the bill, and I managed to nab it used even though it was a bit too expensive for me. I played my SG through it and it was pure love. Beautiful tone. No matter where you set the EQ settings, it sounds gorgeous, with a gorgeous bell-like tone that breaks up nicely when you crank the amp, one of the best tremolos I've ever heard on an amp, and some very nice spring reverb. This is one of those amps where people keep coming up after a gig asking about it. If you can get a Victoria amp for cheap (used, probably), those are also very nice amps. And yes, also a boutique amps. There's a real beauty to their very thick, complex midrange, a little different from some of the Carr amps. And again, there's some really sweet sounding Fender amps out there, so definitely not to be overlooked. And a lot of people swap the tubes afterwards to get even better tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nerol1st Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 I know HC loathes Krank, but after playing and recording a Rev1 combo and hearing multiple recordings of the Rev pro Jr. I recommend the rev pro jr w/ 1X12 cab (unless you already have a cab for the V jr.). Amazing cleans, nice distorted ch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 The new 4 watt class A Vox I heard at NAMM was absolutely awesome. Yeah, I really don't need one (I already have an AC15cc), but that AC4 head + 1X12 cab setup looked pretty tempting. There seems to be some really nice stuff going on in low watt ampville these days, and I don't see how that can be considered anything but "win" for home recording enthusiasts. I think the THD Univalve got the ball rolling with the low wattage head thing, but there's a lot of other options available too. I must have seen three or four new mini-heads at NAMM. Vox has, in addition to the AC4's, a new 7.5 / 15W tube head called the Night Train. It's about the size of a lunch box. Orange has the Tiny Terror, as well as the new Dual Terror. The Egnater Rebel 20 is pretty sweet, and they had a new 30W combo version on display at NAMM too. Fender has the new 65 PRRI (Princeton Reverb Reissue), and again, those are pretty hot. While I'm a HUGE fan of the Deluxe Reverb, the sound of the PRRI somehow seems more accurate and "true" to the originals to me than the Deluxe does when compared to its vintage predecessors. Fender really got this one "right" IMO. It's a combo amp, but it's a classic, and you can always swap out the speaker / baffle board for a 12" if you want, or use an external cabinet with it. The 10" works fine for recording though - it's a different sound than a 12" speaker, but very usable. Ken's Carr is an absolutely incredible sounding amp - it has a lot of complexity and character to the tone, and if you have the means... :phil: I must have somewhere between 8-10 amps, and only one or two is over 20W. I can certainly record "bigger" amps, and do so on a regular basis, but I generally prefer smaller amps in the studio. I like to get those output tubes cookin'. And it looks like the manufacturers are giving us a lot of useful tools in that amp category. The one thing I haven't seen, and really would LOVE to see is a 15-20W Marshall voiced like a JCM800 - if they released one of those, the GAS would be irresistible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members albiedamned Posted February 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 Thanks again for the replies. Phil, the PRRI was what I tried at GC the other day, and like I said, it sounded just a touch nicer to me than the DRRI. Does anyone have any thoughts on the specific issue of recording 10" vs 12" speakers? What are the pros and cons? Regarding the Blues Jr, which a few of you have suggested, I will try that out next time I'm at GC. I'll try to give it a fair shot, but it's an EL84 amp not a 6V6 amp so I'm not expecting to get the nice cleans I was getting from the PRRI and DRRI. I'm going to keep my Valve Jr which is also EL84. I realize that not all EL84's sound alike, but I do like the Valve Jr for Vox-like jangly sounds so I feel like I have that base covered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Magpel Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 If you're talking boutique prices... I have a blackface Princeton Reverb (not an RI) on semi-permanent load because I paid for its repair. Killer, killer amp but NOT what I would choose for clean headroom. No sir. You want to get that Princeton above 5 or 6 for its juiciness to come out, and it is not clean juice. They don't make Deluxes 100 watts for the sake of volume--good lord, my 40 watt Blues Deluxe is unusably loud past 3 1/2--they make 'em that way for clean headroom, or such is my understanding. So I would think the Deluxe RI might be more what you are after, if you want pristine Fender clean as an option, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Magpel Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 OH, BTW, I bought my Reverend guitar after trying it at length through a tiny little Carr amp. It now occurs to me--with piercing clarity--that the guy was really trying to sell me on the Carr. Great amp. Of course, it was $2,100 for an amp the size of glorified lunch box... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 OH, BTW, I bought my Reverend guitar after trying it at length through a tiny little Carr amp. It now occurs to me--with piercing clarity--that the guy was really trying to sell me on the Carr. Great amp. Of course, it was $2,100 for an amp the size of glorified lunch box... They have some small ones, but the sound from those things are incredible. It might be that mini-Mercury. This is a Carr Rambler, which is the size of a typical combo amp with 1 12", I would imagine, although it is only something like 41 pounds (thankfully). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members albiedamned Posted February 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 Ken, you should sell yours. To me. For the same price as a PRRI or DRRI goes for new. I'll even offer to pay shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 That's mighty kind of you. But seeing as this is one of the best sounding amps I've ever heard or played through, I'll probably take one for the team and hang on to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 That's mighty kind of you. But seeing as this is one of the best sounding amps I've ever heard or played through, I'll probably take one for the team and hang on to it. Yup, that's what I figured. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members albiedamned Posted February 3, 2009 Author Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 Anyone have experience with the Egnater Rebel 20? http://guitars.musiciansfriend.com/product/Egnater-Rebel-20-20W-Tube-Guitar-Amp-Head?sku=483496. It's an intriguing feature set, with the ability to blend between 6V6 and EL84 power tubes. I have to wonder if it sounds as good in reality as it does on paper though. I like the fact that it's a head unit instead of a combo, and I like the price. I could get it plus an Avatar 1x12 for less than the PRRI or DRRI. It doesn't have reverb or vibrato (tremolo), but those are nice-to-haves not must-haves. I can always do reverb through the DAW or get a Holy Grail or something, and I already have a EHX Pulsar for tremolo. I'll have to find a store that carries it so I can try it out. I doubt GC stocks it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted February 3, 2009 Share Posted February 3, 2009 Actually, Guitar Center DOES sell them... but because they're a hot commodity at the moment, you might not always find one on display in your local store. I have heard a lot about the Rebel, and I checked one out briefly at NAMM. I really like the feature set a lot - 6V6 and EL84's are two of my favorite power tubes, and the ability to blend between those two distinctive tonal options is pretty darned sweet. I don't know if I'd take a Rebel over a Princeton; I'd need a lot more time with one - preferably in my studio as opposed to a noisy trade show floor - before making that determination, but what I've heard sounded pretty sweet, and it would probably nicely augment my little amp collection - which includes, among other things, a 83 Princeton Reverb II and a "blackfaced" 71 Princeton Amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members nerol1st Posted February 3, 2009 Members Share Posted February 3, 2009 Last time I was in GC (2 days after labor day sale) all they had was Egnator stuff. Well not all they had, but most of the other stuff in that price range was gone. I don't know what that says about Egnator... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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