Members goaway Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 I hear about people doing this all the time. I know how it works well with bass, but what are the benefits of doing it with electric guitar? thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 I hear about people doing this all the time. I know how it works well with bass, but what are the benefits of doing it with electric guitar? thanks. I rarely do this, to be honest, but it would give you further articulation. If I did do this, I'd probably blend a clean track with a distorted track and then bring the clean track up "behind" the distorted track to give it more definition. One advantage to this is that you would only need to do one pass (performance). More often than not, though, what I end up doing is recording a clean track through an amp to augment a distorted track recorded through an amp (two different performances). I prefer the sound of that personally, but YMMV. Another fun thing to do is have an acoustic guitar playing the same part as the distorted part, and blend to taste. That can sound really great. You can do this all the way through the track, or only in certain parts of the song, and it can really lift the guitar track or give it additional sonic interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Inazone Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 With a clean DI track, you would have the option of using an amp sim plug-in or reamping, giving you some different "flavors" from the miked amp track. It's definitely handy if you want to double-track a single performance but don't have the option of recording two different amps at the same time. It can also be a real lifesaver if you find any issues with the amp track after it's too late to retrack. My band encountered both situations, as we wanted to get a second amp tone on my parts (via Guitar Rig software) and also had some noise issues on some of the other guitarist's parts that we were able to get around by using an amp sim on his DI track. Furthermore, we recorded in Pro Tools LE and were limited in the total track count, but mixed in PT9, so we used the DI tracks to "fake" doubled rhythms on several songs. I'm a believer, and wish we would've used a clean DI on all of our songs. We got by without it when we had to, but having the DI made things a lot easier. And I've heard some excellent results with reamping, especially in cases where a guitarist recorded their parts at home with a less-than-stellar setup and then reamped in a pro studio through amps much better suited to nailing the desired tone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 Good point about the amp sims. I thought about that after I posted that but never circled back, so I'm glad you pointed it out. Enables you to postpone or alter decisions later, which can be handy. Personally, I like to commit as much as possible, but there's times in which its not prudent or practical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CME Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Yeah for electric guitars, I believe it's more about reamping. In fact there are several boxes out there just for this. They act as a DI going in, but can then be reversed to turn the line level output of your recorder to an instrument level signal to send back to an amp. However if you are recording "in the box" and have some amp plug ins you can just use those and forget about sending it back to the amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 I'm sort of "old fashioned", I suppose, even though I do occasionally use amp sims (usually to eff something up, though). If I go DI, I almost always re-amp. I like the air going through the room. Even if it's a clean tone, I like pushing air. Puts some depth and some hair on those guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Theres several ways of DIing as well. You can use a DI box straight off the guitar, You can use a line out from an amp and is your amp is equipped some have speaker emulated line outs. These are the best in my opinion because they capture power amp saturation and give you everything in the guitar chain minus the miced speaker. They are very easy to build into an external box or add a jack to an amp head for recording and i'm surprised how few actually use or even know about that kind of DI. They are used alot for live PA work on vintage amps where no direct out is available and micing is a problem. They also have better tone than a line out that takes the line level signal from the preamp and sounds harsh as hell and needs all kinds of EQing to get it to sound decent. Only costs a few dollars to build. I have a factory built in on my Marshall head and the recording quality is real enough to where I have to solo the direct and miced tracks to tell which is which by the room ambiance the mic captures. I've installed them in my older tube amps as well. I find the DI great in situations where I'm recording live instruments and dont want to deal with the bleedover. This way I only have to be concerned with the drum mics. Heres the diagram for the speaker emulated line out. The caps in the circuit remove the harsh edge and give the signal speaker tone for recording. this can be built into the amp or into a metal box you can plug into an extension speaker jack. I added the pot to the circuit so you can dial up how strong you want the signal but its not really needed if you have an amp under 50W or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chakosh Posted April 10, 2011 Members Share Posted April 10, 2011 Here's the diagram for the speaker emulated line out. The caps in the circuit remove the harsh edge and give the signal speaker tone for recording. this can be built into the amp or into a metal box you can plug into an extension speaker jack. I added the pot to the circuit so you can dial up how strong you want the signal but its not really needed if you have an amp under 50W or so. What affect does this have on the impedance that the output transformer of the amp sees? I have a few extra holes in the back of my Marshall where some jacko had installed a sh!tty effects loop. That has since been removed and the amp returned to stock, but I'm curious about the whole DI/Reamping bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members yureal Posted April 11, 2011 Members Share Posted April 11, 2011 I just bought a passive reamping device, but my band didn't record anything but mic'd guitar amps on our latest and still in progress studio endeavor. So I've played w/ the reamper and know its wonder, but I'm powerless to use it without re-tracking in this case. Its ok, the mix and the music will survive...; just know that I'll definitely be recording guitar amps AND clean DI signals on all, or at least most, of my future recrdings! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 11, 2011 Members Share Posted April 11, 2011 What affect does this have on the impedance that the output transformer of the amp sees? I have a few extra holes in the back of my Marshall where some jacko had installed a sh!tty effects loop. That has since been removed and the amp returned to stock, but I'm curious about the whole DI/Reamping bit... Practically nothing. the 470 ohm resistor and pot is in series with the recorcing device impediance which is 10,000 ohms so you're talking virtually no loading on the amp in parallel with your speakers. The 22,000 ohm resistor and cap wont have any affect either because you're dealing with such low voltages at that point. It steals maybe 1% of the signal going to your speakers and that wouldnt harm any amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chakosh Posted April 11, 2011 Members Share Posted April 11, 2011 Practically nothing. the 470 ohm resistor and pot is in series with the recorcing device impediance which is 10,000 ohms so you're talking virtually no loading on the amp in parallel with your speakers. The 22,000 ohm resistor and cap wont have any affect either because you're dealing with such low voltages at that point. It steals maybe 1% of the signal going to your speakers and that wouldnt harm any amp. Good to know! I have to do a cap job on the JMP anyways, so I might add a little Line Out on there while I'm at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 12, 2011 Members Share Posted April 12, 2011 Good to know! I have to do a cap job on the JMP anyways, so I might add a little Line Out on there while I'm at it. Yea its surely a handy item to have for both live and recording. The pot I added to the circuit allows you to vary the amount of output to an inteface of board. I went without a pot on my Blackface bassman and its just right for the level I run my amp at. For a 100W amp cranked the laval may be too high so having a pot to vary the level is a must. Also note you dont have to build it into an amp if you dont want to. You can just as easily build this into a small metal box. Just add another jack parallel to the speaker jack in the diagram. Then you can plug your head and cab into the box and use the third jack for recording. Of if you have an extension speaker jack on your head, just use that to plug into the box and thats it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chakosh Posted April 12, 2011 Members Share Posted April 12, 2011 Also note you dont have to build it into an amp if you dont want to. You can just as easily build this into a small metal box. Just add another jack parallel to the speaker jack in the diagram. Then you can plug your head and cab into the box and use the third jack for recording. Of if you have an extension speaker jack on your head, just use that to plug into the box and thats it. Yeah, the nice thing about my JMP is that I have the space to do it. I can just use the pre-existing holes that the DN had drilled for the effects loop that has been long removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 12, 2011 Members Share Posted April 12, 2011 There you go then. It only costs a few bucks and even with a good quality pot and jack its less than $10. You could of course tie into the preamp circuit and take a tap there but having it after the output transformer provides the power tube and OT tone. The only thing you dont get is the speaker tone, but with some EQing it does sound pretty good. Sounds good direct into a PA board too. My 100w Valvestate Marshall came with a speaker emulated output built in. I recorded with it using a mic on the 1960 cab and the line out and gotten great results. they really spent the time on getting it right cause The only way I can tell which is which is by listening for the room sound in the background of the miced channel. Anyway, good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members yureal Posted April 12, 2011 Members Share Posted April 12, 2011 My first 'real' amp was an original Valvestate 100 combo; I really wish I had never sold it. I loved that amp. Its emulated output was nice too. Man I miss that amp....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CME Posted April 12, 2011 Members Share Posted April 12, 2011 Out of curiosity what wattage do you use for the components for that line out? I may have to make me a little box and try it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 13, 2011 Members Share Posted April 13, 2011 Out of curiosity what wattage do you use for the components for that line out? I may have to make me a little box and try it out. 1/2 watt resistors are fine. If you want to go one watt you can. Theres less than 1 volt draw its really not an issue. I'd say the non polarized cap is safe at 100v easy. The cap is there for tonal coloring to emulate high frequency rolloff of a speaker. You could put a switch on there and have say a .001, or a .01uf cap to have a lowpass rolloff selection as well. Or maybe go with a .01uf cap and put a pot in series with it for a variable trebble rolloff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted April 13, 2011 Members Share Posted April 13, 2011 My first 'real' amp was an original Valvestate 100 combo; I really wish I had never sold it. I loved that amp. Its emulated output was nice too. Man I miss that amp....... I got the second version head and have likely had it about 8 years now. I'd rather have a 50w plexi like I used to own back in the 70s, but the prices are so rediculous now for those now. think I paid 250 for mine back then then had it stolen from me. I do have 4 other tube amps so its not a huge issue for me. I like the valve state. Its rock solid and definately has the Marshall tone. I used to use the drive channels but mostly use the clean channel and dirt boxes. I have a marshall governor which gives me the same drive as the heads drive channels so I just use that and others. I'd probibly use the drive channels if I werent running dual amps for recording. the way I'm currently wires is quazi stereo using chorus and echo splits where a mono signal goes into a chorus pedal, then the two outs from there go into a stereo echo unit. All my drive is prior to the time based effects for best tone. Pretty darn lush sounding. Using the heads amp drive after time based effects awful so i'd have to put those in the effects loop like I used to. I may wind up going back to using rack units in the loop. I just got a mint condition music man 65 tube head I got for dam near free along with some great rack units. The tone plugged in straight with no effects into a 4X10 cab I have with alnico Jensons is absolutely killer. I'm likely going to do some creative brain storming and rework the whole setup soon. I may wind up going with two parallel effects chains after say the wah volume at the front end then do a split there and run one amps effects from pedals and the other with rack units. I've collected alot of gear over the years wheeling and dealing so I got alot of tonal options available to me. I can wire up some complex effects chains and that I'd never use live. Theres no problem dialing up several drive devices for varying amounts of gain. Playing live you need to keep it simple. Trying to work two different chains with separate drive pedals just doesnt work well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LeonardScaper Posted April 13, 2011 Members Share Posted April 13, 2011 I'm sort of "old fashioned", I suppose Yeah, me too. I'm just now tracking the old SG and it's just two amps straight up and in. Never quite got down with sims and reamping, although I do like the sound of a DI'd electric plain and simple sometimes as an electric counterpoint for my softer stuff. Sometimes when you get a bunch of signals going in like that you run the risk of muddying the water a little. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted April 14, 2011 Moderators Share Posted April 14, 2011 Sometimes when you get a bunch of signals going in like that you run the risk of muddying the water a little. True. Or... you end up with some flexibility. When I'm recording other guitarists I tend to take a DI. Sometimes what they dial in may not be appropriate to the tune in the light of the next day. After they're gone. A guy wants an AC/DC sound so he plays into a stompbox and a Fender combo and... ...I take a DI before the effects. I then borrow a... 70's Marshall 50 watt and 4x cab. Crank it out in the big room and play with mikes (ribbon, LDC or dynamic?), pedals (Fulltone or the Ibanez?) or not, drive the power amp tubes, tweak the tone stack, all while he's gone... ...and upon hearing your reamp he says, "I told you that Fender Blues Jr. and Metal Zone pedal could do a cool AC/DC tone!!!". Another cool reamping benefit is the ability to use guitar amp room mikes with a track that was tracked live. And you can use a couple of amps simultaneously. Do you know how good a 70 Marshall and an early 60's Gibson tube combo can sound cranked? Amps physically spread out. Stereo Blumlien room mikes... It's beautiful! This may seem deceitful but, when you've got a good guitarist that doesn't have very much recording experience, sometimes you keep him comfortable. His rig. You don't have a ton of time either. Let him concentrate on his part. And then... I've borrowed a wall of cool amps and done an album in a day. If the guy's hip, he helps out to get the ultimate tone. If not, don't tell. Of course I'm not saying this is the preferable way, I'm saying that it is a great way to overcome some tough circumstances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LeonardScaper Posted April 14, 2011 Members Share Posted April 14, 2011 "I told you that Fender Blues Jr. and Metal Zone pedal could do a cool AC/DC tone!!!". Everybody knows you can't get those tones with a Blues Jr...........you need the Pro Jr. for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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