Jimmy Page being discredited

[Ra_]

 

Turns out, the history of this song has been well known and well documented for a long time. From what I have read, there has never been a controversy. But, it is a typical Howard Stern publicity stunt to stir up controversies that have already been settled or never existed in the first place. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazed_and_Confused_(song)

 

 

Oh, it's known? So that makes it ok with you then?

Well, I didn't know all these details before.

Don't try to redirect our scorn for Page and Plant onto Howard Stern

 

I tracked down Jake's work

http://surfpick.com/jakeholmes.mp3

[jrockbridge]

 

Wow. They just played a song by Jake Holmes. He opened for the Yardbirds. The song is called Dazed and Confused and it has the exact same descending line. Page is scum, there is no question now

 

 

I hate to admit it...but I think I finally have to agree:

 

For reasons unknown, Jimmy Page claimed sole credit for the song upon release, and Holmes has never received any royalty payments for their recording. [1] Holmes did not press charges against the band, but merely sent them a letter stating "I understand it's a collaborative effort, but I think you should give me some credit at least and some remunity." His letter was never replied to and he did not follow up on it. [2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dazed_and_Confused

 

I'm guessing it must be a standard clause in the crossroads contract with the Devil. "Sign here and you will be a big rock star, but you can never give credit to any of your influences, and I get your soul!"

[dparr]

WTF does this have to do with the thread? Yngwie Malmsteen owns Clapton in every way! Clapton never played an original riff in his life. YM is a true innovator. Why? Because YM had the genius to steal his riffs from Niccol

[Mr JinX]

true, except that cream and jeff beck both suck compared to zeppelin. yes it's true. cream had eric claption, who was and is far too respectful of his heroes to do anything original, and jeff beck who is a kick ass guitar player but is also very lazy and is content to trot out his hot licks every now and then for an appreciative audience of aging guitarists.

 

agree 1000000%

[335clone]

:bor: :bor: :bor:

This is all such old news, and the entire broohaha was acknowleged by Zep when they were still a band, you know, 30 {censored}ing years ago. The only reason this is being discussed here is because some noob named Ra is listening to Stern:rolleyes:

Zeppelins originals are better tham most other bands originals, and their covers blew away the originals in most every case.

Who {censored}ing Cares Anymore?

Zeppelin was bigger than the sum of their parts, and their output dwarfs that of (his good friends) Beck and Clapton in every way.


I'd love to be as 'sloppy' as Page.

[zigzaguarsnarl]

That is correct. Ran is a reworking of King Lear, and several of Kurosawa's other films are based on Western literature. He readily admitted to outside influences in his own work. Kurosawa was a fan of American westerns, and Yojimbo is basically a "samurai western". Stray Dog is very much a film noir, as well. Some Japanese film historians even go so far as to claim Kurosawa's work "wasn't Japanese enough." In a phrase, all artists are influenced by others to some extent. Although Led Zeppelin was a particular offender in the early days, I think they should be judged fairly, not only for the work that infringed upon other music, but also for the great original music they created from those influences.

And Shakespeare's plots were already extant, re-worked and tweeked by da master. But in those days, originality wasn't so fetishized.

[darkone15]

Zeppelin was bigger than the sum of their parts, and their output dwarfs that of (his good friends) Beck and Clapton in every way. I'd love to be as 'sloppy' as Page.

Thank you sir . My dad and uncle were talking about the arguments they use to get in back in the 70's about this very thing. As for him being sloppy, I'm gonna wager that he is way better than any one here... he is "sloppy" becaue he plays what he feels, he hardly ever playes a song the same way twice. This is often confused for sloppyness because it's not why people expect from the records so it throwes them off.

[Ra_]

 

The only reason this is being discussed here is because some noob named Ra is listening to Stern:rolleyes: Zeppelins originals are better tham most other bands originals, and their covers blew away the originals in most every case. I'd love to be as 'sloppy' as Page.

 

 

Nobody is debating how well Page plays the guitar.

I guess if you have to fall back on that,

you have no argument for the fact that he's a thieving scumbag

and if that's ok with you, then I have to wonder about your ethics.

 

Must you really whine simply because we're discussing it

and pointing out some of the details?

If you don't like it, go to another thread.

[darkone15]

I'm not saying that they didn't take stuff, I'm just trying to say that they are a very talented group even though they did take stuff from other artists.

I was talking about his guitar playing in reaction to what dparr said.

Also I am ok with them "stealing" because it is not stealing. They are paying homage to their blues heros. It is like they are advertising for them. In a way that if you like the stuff they are playing you should go buy the original record.

When you play a paying gig do you ask for permission to play covers or do you just play them. Legaly you are suppose to pay royaltys when you get payed for playing covers.

You seem to be takeing this way to seriously. This thread isn't going to make a difference. I bet you were one of those guys who were for the shut down napster.

[2mcuh2soon]

I'm not saying that they didn't take stuff, I'm just trying to say that they are a very talented group even though they did take stuff from other artists. I was talking about his guitar playing in reaction to what dparr said. Also I am ok with them "stealing" because it is not stealing. They are paying homage to their blues heros. It is like they are advertising for them. In a way that if you like the stuff they are playing you should go buy the original record. When you play a paying gig do you ask for permission to play covers or do you just play them. Legaly you are suppose to pay royaltys when you get payed for playing covers. You seem to be takeing this way to seriously. This thread isn't going to make a difference. I bet you were one of those guys who were for the shut down napster.

Thats what I was thinking.
If you have a burning hate for someone when you only know a few details about their life you just may have some issues.

[sonnyg84]

[dparr]

I was talking about his guitar playing in reaction to what dparr said. Also I am ok with them "stealing" because it is not stealing. They are paying homage to their blues heros. It is like they are advertising for them. In a way that if you like the stuff they are playing you should go buy the original record.

I use like Led Zepp a lot. When I saw them live I couldn't belive how "off" they were.

If they were paying homage to their blues heros then why didn't they give them credit for writing the songs like Cream did?

Piss poor way to treat your hero's!

[walt0915]

I'm not saying that they didn't take stuff, I'm just trying to say that they are a very talented group even though they did take stuff from other artists. I was talking about his guitar playing in reaction to what dparr said. Also I am ok with them "stealing" because it is not stealing. They are paying homage to their blues heros. It is like they are advertising for them. In a way that if you like the stuff they are playing you should go buy the original record. When you play a paying gig do you ask for permission to play covers or do you just play them. Legaly you are suppose to pay royaltys when you get payed for playing covers. You seem to be takeing this way to seriously. This thread isn't going to make a difference. I bet you were one of those guys who were for the shut down napster.

 

 

No, they stole it. Tribute would include listing the author in the credits, which they didn't, until sued. And your comment about royalties is incorrect, the band is not responsible for obtaining a license, the owner of the venue is. The owner of a venue is responsible even if the music is recorded, even if its off the radio.

 

You might not argee with existing copyright law, but the law it is, and this is an ethical question, not a matter of musicianship.

[jrockbridge]

Although the label plans to stop production of Page's solo discs in their current form, many of the albums will be re-released with new packaging and different titles. The following is a partial list:

Old Release Title (becomes) New Release Title
**********************************************************

1982 Death Wish II (becomes) Death Wish For Willie Dixon's Legacy
1984 No Introduction Necessary (becomes) No Intro For Sonny Boy Williamson
1988 Outrider (becomes) Out Rippin' Off Muddy Waters
1998 Before The Balloon Went Up (becomes) Before I Stole Jeff Becks Concept
2000 Live At The Greek (becomes) Live 'N' Let Me Rip Off Spirit
2003 This Guitar Kills (becomes) This Guitar Kills Jake Holme's Legacy

[335clone]

No, they stole it. Tribute would include listing the author in the credits, which they didn't, until sued. And your comment about royalties is incorrect, the band is not responsible for obtaining a license, the owner of the venue is. The owner of a venue is responsible even if the music is recorded, even if its off the radio. You might not argee with existing copyright law, but the law it is, and this is an ethical question, not a matter of musicianship.

The point is, why are we even discussing it today, since it has been over and done with for decdes. Jimmy acknowleged that some of the original artists didn't get credit, and the suit was settled. So Stern gets some idiot on his show and stirrs up the {censored}, and now all of us are supposed to scorn one of the best guitarists in rock history.

Some anonymous internet dweeb proclaims Page a "thieving scumbag" and lots of tots jump on the bandwagon:mad:

Bull{censored}.

[darkone15]

I use like Led Zepp a lot. When I saw them live I couldn't belive how "off" they were. If they were paying homage to their blues heros then why didn't they give them credit for writing the songs like Cream did?

Did you only see them once? Between 2 of my uncles they saw them 5 or 6 times and said it was amazing. every one has their off nights.

I dont know why they didnt credit their heros. The obviously had alot of repect for them seeing as how they were a blues based band. Maby they were more worried about the music.

It doesnt mater if you like how they came up with the music. Just listen it. You can find problems with anything if you look hard enough.

[jrockbridge]

...Jimmy acknowleged that some of the original artists didn't get credit, and the suit was settled....

 

 

NONE of the original artists were given credit. And, the only corrections were done so by the order of the court. I love Pagey, but imo he needs to put his house in order.

[2mcuh2soon]

I use like Led Zepp a lot. When I saw them live I couldn't belive how "off" they were. If they were paying homage to their blues heros then why didn't they give them credit for writing the songs like Cream did? Piss poor way to treat your hero's!

I saw Clapton once and almost fell asleep. And I am a Clapton fan. His performance on that particular night was just weak. Doesn't mean he is always that way. Obviously not or he wouldn't be what he is.
Same with Zeppelin. They put on their fair share of clunker shows. If they were always bad live they wouldn't of been selling out MSG, The Forum, Chicago stadium, etc, for 5-7 nights in a row.
As far as the album credits go I believe Peter Grant had some influence on who Zeppelin officially gave the writing credits to.

[dparr]

Did you only see them once? Between 2 of my uncles they saw them 5 or 6 times and said it was amazing. every one has their off nights. I dont know why they didnt credit their heros. The obviously had alot of repect for them seeing as how they were a blues based band. Maby they were more worried about the music.

 

 

I drove a long way and spent a lot of money to see them play badly.

Why would I risk doing that again?

 

If they had alot of repect for there hero's then why didn't they give them credit? Other bands of that time did!

[TeamoDave]

Funnily I reread Hammer of the Gods over the weekend- It details the ins and outs of the lifted bits pretty well (sans the stairway one)

 

 

I remember something in there about how Jimmy was mad at Robert for not changing the lyrics and that is why they had the legal troubles.

[darkone15]

If they had alot of repect for there hero's then why didn't they give them credit? Other bands of that time did!

 

 

Im pretty sure i said I didnt know. I do know that zeppelin rocks reguardless of where they got their inspiration.

[Mr JinX]

Another thing people need to consider is that information about anything and everything was no where near as easily available then as it was now- how the hell would anyone know who wrote what when all you have are some murky old records of songs recorded by many people? Its easy to jump on the internet and dig it all out but seriously all this {censored} was considered "standards" back in the day.

I also find the idea that Randy California and Holmes Whoever's legacies have been tarnished to be ridiculous, because honestly I have never heard of them before this thread, and the songs in their original forms are pretty uneventful. Led Zep were not just about the music, the were about money, power, hookers and dope and they lived it to the fullest. If they had to break a few eggs to make that omlet then IMHO (of course) it was well worth the result.

[TeamoDave]

Another thing people need to consider is that information about anything and everything was no where near as easily available then as it was now- how the hell would anyone know who wrote what when all you have are some murky old records of songs recorded by many people? Its easy to jump on the internet and dig it all out but seriously all this {censored} was considered "standards" back in the day. I also find the idea that Randy California and Holmes Whoever's legacies have been tarnished to be ridiculous, because honestly I have never heard of them before this thread, and the songs in their original forms are pretty uneventful. Led Zep were not just about the music, the were about money, power, hookers and dope and they lived it to the fullest. If they had to break a few eggs to make that omlet then IMHO (of course) it was well worth the result.

 

 

 

Well put. I don't think Randy and so and so came up with lines like "If there's a bustle in your hedgerow" and "And there's a wind on down the road, our shadow's taller than our soul". If they had done that, then maybe we would have actually heard of them before. Every note on the guitar has been played before so it's kinda hard to not sound like something that's been done before. Maybe we should take the King's crown off the Elvis legacy too, while we're at it.

[jrockbridge]

 

......As far as the album credits go I believe Peter Grant had some influence on who Zeppelin officially gave the writing credits to.

 

 

I'm glad you said that because I think it's true. Ultimately, a band or artist has to take the blame for what their managers do because they went along with it. But, based on what I have read, Peter Grant was very greedy. Page and Plant have to suffer this on their reputations because they did nothing to stop it, but I bet it was Peter's idea for them to take song writing credit on every song.

[darkone15]

Maybe we should take the King's crown off the Elvis legacy too, while we're at it.

 

 

Thats true Elvis wrote almost nothing for himself.