Jimmy Page being discredited

[jrockbridge]

Wow! You can make a list of random bands! Give us the songs, and the songs those artists ripped off, for our consideration... otherwise, that list means nothing. Here's a list of bands who have never ripped off a single note (without any proof to back my statement up): Nickleback, Korn, Limp Bizkit, Bobby McFerrin, Wayne Newton, Newt Gingrich, Morrissey, Olivia, Newt, and John, The Army of Lovers, Winger, Warrant, and The impotent Sea Snakes.

 

You are right! The list itself is B.S. I was baiting people with a specific list.

 

When I included this in the statement, "otherwise lifted musical ideas and riffs from other artists and passed them off as their own" it applies to every artists and band. Every artists is the sum their musical influences and they all borrow parts of musical ideas either consciously or subconsciously from artists that came before them.

 

As for your "list of bands who have never ripped off a single note." All I need is music theory to prove it wrong. None of the bands you listed invented any new musical notes, therefore the statement "never ripped off a single note" is false.

 

But, you knew that and were just baiting me to call me on my B.S. Well played sir!

 

 

[Nephilim-777]

I've heard this subject before all this time I thought the automatic writings of the spirit of Aiwass, Mega Therion and the musical abilities of Jimmy Page where much more original than that.

[acefreely]

Taurus ( the band Led Zepellin opened for )

 

 

That is definately not stolen. It's similar and that's it. Probably his insparation for Stairway, but note for note, they are not the same.

[zigzaguarsnarl]

In all the examples, Zep did it better. I guess Page is like SRV. More of a performer than a composer.

 

 

Rock IS blues ripoff music. All of it. And in any case, most music is 99% derivative; according to Brian Eno, "innovative" music betters the percentage by a few points, and Zep was innovative by that standard.

 

However, IMO, Zep's blues "rip-offs" don't touch the originals (if that's the right word).

Page et al were pea sprouts and wanna be's compared to Willie Dixon, Howlin' Wolf etc...

[cogdog]

I don't care who wrote what, if you can play like Zepp you deserve a spot in the Hall of Fame, and anywhere else you want for that matter

[double rocker]

 

That is definately not stolen. It's similar and that's it. Probably his insparation for Stairway, but note for note, they are not the same.

 

 

they're similar enough to be an obvious plagiarism, imho. that kind of progression with those specific note fillers is not a common motif or pattern. plus, we know that page had access to the song before he "wrote" stairway, so it's pretty obvious that he ripped it from there, subconsciously or not.

 

interestingly, it appears from what i've just been reading about the george harrison plaigiarism suit involving "he's so fine" and "my sweet lord," that whether it's subconscious or not doesn't even matter for there to be an infringement. it just has to be shown that the artist had exposure to the original song before writing the similar one in question. the judge even found that the plagiarism in harrison's case *was* subconscious, but it didn't matter. based on the similarities in the note progressions and harrison's previous exposure to HSF, he was judged to have infringed it.

 

http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/mysweet.htm

[Nazgul6]

Love Zep but that certainly sheds some more light on the whole Black Sabbath vs. Led Zeppelin thing as far as being innovators. You can't take away from Zeps record sales, mind blowing performances or all the great things they have achieved, but when it comes to being touted as innovators I guess this is a chink in the armor.

That is as long as Iommi and Geezer aren't guilty of the same thing. Actually, Geezer already admitted that the NIB riff he took from Cream. And Iommi was a big Hank Marvin guy so I'm sure there has been some lifting there. Although I think its pretty safe to say a lot of Sabath was totally original for its time.

[Edward]

interestingly, it appears from what i've just been reading about the george harrison plaigiarism suit involving "he's so fine" and "my sweet lord," that whether it's subconscious or not doesn't even matter for there to be an infringement. it just has to be shown that the artist had exposure to the original song before writing the similar one in question. the judge even found that the plagiarism in harrison's case *was* subconscious, but it didn't matter. based on the similarities in the note progressions and harrison's previous exposure to HSF, he was judged to have infringed it. http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/mysweet.htm

 

 

This is true - it doesn't have to be exact, just close enough. The standard for copyright in English law, which I believe to be the same as US law, is that it has to representthe author's own intellectual creation - it doesn't matter if it's exactly or substantially the same if it can be proven that there has been no exposure to the original. Of course, how likely that is will vary on the facts. If Zeppelin ripped other people off, however innocently, then yes their credits should be altered to reflect that. It doesn't necessarily negate their significance in the history of music (although that said I myself have always considered them to be a decent enough but absurdly overrated act - clearly a lot of folks, primarily I note based in the USA, disagree); some of the most significant musical figures of the 20th century were performers and interpreters of others' songs rather than writers themselves - Elvis, for instance, or Sinatra. That for me is where the reaction against manufactured pop acts has gone overboard in a baby out with the bathwater way - IMO, songwriting and performing are two different skills. Sure, some folks excel at both, but someone who is truly great at one is no less so because they're not so skilled at the other. Funnily enough, it seems to me that the rock area appears to be often out on its own in this - folk and classical musicians are not castigated simply because they are not primarily songwriters. To extend it into entertainments further, I don't recall ever hearing an actor criticised for not being a scriptwriter also.

 

Anyhow. Zeppelin's Rock and Roll is a truly great song - not especially original, but great fun. Otherwise, I can entirely take them or leave them.

 

FWIW, the story I remember hearing was that the intro to Stairway was ripped off from a classical guitar exercise in a teaching book?

[jrockbridge]

interestingly, it appears from what i've just been reading about the george harrison plaigiarism suit involving "he's so fine" and "my sweet lord," that whether it's subconscious or not doesn't even matter for there to be an infringement. it just has to be shown that the artist had exposure to the original song before writing the similar one in question. the judge even found that the plagiarism in harrison's case *was* subconscious, but it didn't matter. based on the similarities in the note progressions and harrison's previous exposure to HSF, he was judged to have infringed it. http://abbeyrd.best.vwh.net/mysweet.htm

It makes sense that the law doesn't care about intent or bad memory, otherwise "I didn't do it consciously" would be an all too common defense. Anyway, I think the original artists deserve to have their rights protected regardless if their works are used by others on purpose or by accident.

But, it is interesting how intent does play into our feelings about the act. It seems easier to forgive a person who steals accidentally than someone who does it on purpose. Anyway, it's hard for me not to forgive a Beatle.

[Burningleaves]

Did anyone from Spirit ever way in on the whole issue?

[Dujo]

This article is a pretty good overview.

 

http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html

 

I haven't read it for a few years, probably covers the same stuff as this radio interview. I don't really think it takes much away from Zeppelin, but it is criminal that they stole royalties from people for so long.

 

I have the original version of Dazed and Confused on a Jimmy Page session man bootleg, it's really similar, but seems like something they had heard and half remembered, it's a pretty cool song, very different, but obviously the same at the same time.

 

 

The evidence is laid out. It is up to you, gentle reader, to assess whether Jimmy Page and Led Zeppelin deserve the prestige they have been accorded. Now, this may appear to be nothing but gratuitous Page-bashing. Far from it. To this day, Jimmy Page is unacknowledged as one of the two the greatest psychedelic guitar players ever. The other one is not Jimi Hendrix, but rather the aforementioned Syd Barrett. Page's criminally underrated work with the Yardbirds and on countless sessions (take note of his hypnotic work on Donovan's "Sunshine Superman") reveal him to have set the standard for lysergic discord par excellence. Further, in light of the fact that Page played on 60% of everything released in Britian between 1963-66 and then adding his work with the Yardbirds and Led Zeppelin, he is undoubtedly the most recorded major guitarist ever. His fretwork itself is never in question. Even on the lightweight session material he appears on, Page's guitar playing itself is impeccable (which is amazing if you consider that the majority of those forgotten groups should not have been within ear-shot of a studio). But it his habit for putting his name on others materials that is being examined here, not his guitar sorcery.

 

[Jacksix]

Ok, Sort of on the topic, listen to the outro on VH's Panama and then listen to the outro on Steely Dan's Bodhisatva. Same outro.

There's eight notes and a couple sharps and flats. What does this historian want us to do, play in UHF?

If it was on Howard Stern, it was bull{censored}.

However, I will be buying a Surfpick as soon as I can convince my wife I need one.

-Jacksix

[septopus]

Led Zeppelin are a great band, "Led Zeppelin II" is worthy of admission to the R&R Hall of Fame all by itself. That being said, "Zep II" is littered with blues rip-offs. I don't mind that they did it, as their versions are top-notch, but you've got to credit the original composer. "The Lemon Song" is basically an extended remake of Howlin' Wolf's "Killing Floor", and "Bring It On Home" starts out with Robert Plant clearly imitating Sonny Boy Williamson's vocal delivery of the same song. Again, doesn't diminish my regard for the album, and they're not the only ones to do it (some blues guys did the same thing), but they certainly asked for any lawsuits that came their way.

[jrockbridge]

....FWIW, the story I remember hearing was that the intro to Stairway was ripped off from a classical guitar exercise in a teaching book?

So....Zep ripped off the intro to Stairway from Spirit who ripped it off from a classical guitar exercise. Or, they both ripped it off from the same classical guitar exercise. It is getting pretty complicated.

[darkone15]

Taurus ( the band Led Zepellin opened for )

 

 

That kinda also sounds like the intro the The Beatles "Dear Prudence" just lower. And on this whole stolen music thing, You cant own music. Once you put it out there it is out there. If you want to keep it for your self, record it and dont sell it. This is especialy true of blues, I mean there are only so many ways to say, "My babys leaving on a train," or some thing like that

[lyyky]

"that kind of progression with those specific note fillers is not a common motif or pattern." apologies to double rocker for calling you out on that one...

Ummm, yes it is. A minor triad with a chromatic descending root note is a well-known cliche. We learned it when we we learning common progressions in Harmony class at Berklee.

Listen to the old jazz standard "My Funny Valentine" and you'll hear it in m. 1-4 and in m. 9-12.

So, did Spirit rip off Rodgers and Hart, and then get ripped by Page? No, of course not. I can hum examples of this progression going as far back as friggin' J.S. Bach, although I can't cite a specific Bach example by name, sorry.

I listened to Taurus, and frankly, Page was obviously inspired by it, assuming he had heard it before, but what he composed is SO much more compelling that it's just silly to think Spirit should get any credit for it, esp. keeping in mind the cliched nature of the progression. IMnot very humbleO.

Reading this thread is interesting - I can tell who the knowledgable songwriters are, because anyone who has a few years' experience writing songs and analyzing other people's songs knows that there's nothing new under the sun. Anything you write is going to be shockingly similar to something that someone owns an mp3 of.

[Hard Truth]

I am familiar with several of the blues songs that Zep "stole" from. On "Bring it on Home" the first part is an uncanny imitation of the original Sonny Boy Williamson recording, the rest is quite different. With all of the other blues songs they "stole" there is minimal resemblance to the original.

Zep may have stole a few things here and there (Judging from the Taurus clip they stole that STH opening) but they also had one of the most original sounds ever. No one sounded like Zep before they came around.

[Zurich17]

 

There is a music business exec and historian on Howard Stern right now. He's talking about all the songs that people have copied. He says that on the latest Zeppelin pressings, Plant & Page are no longer credited as songwriters on many of their hits. The old Blues masters are now being listed as the songwriters. They played a song by the group Spirit, that sounds just like the intro to Stairway To Heaven Led Zepellin used to open for Spirit. This historian is angry and wants Zepellin removed from the R&R Hall of Fame

 

I haven't heard the Spirit song (I'm tracking it down now), but I assume Stairway was a better song than the former. Plain and simple. Its banned in music shops around the world because its good (or just melodically safe, I don't know how subjective Stairway to Heaven is).

 

If the Spirit song was better then they'd be famous for it, but they're not.

 

edit: just listened to Taurus, it doesn't really sound that much like Stairway, pretty standard riff. Not as blatant Dani California vs. Mary Jane's Last Dance anyway. Again case in point, Tom Petty is a prick, Chili Peppers are fantastic.

[jrockbridge]

This article is a pretty good overview. http://www.furious.com/perfect/jimmypage.html I haven't read it for a few years, probably covers the same stuff as this radio interview. I don't really think it takes much away from Zeppelin, but it is criminal that they stole royalties from people for so long. I have the original version of Dazed and Confused on a Jimmy Page session man bootleg, it's really similar, but seems like something they had heard and half remembered, it's a pretty cool song, very different, but obviously the same at the same time.

So we need to redo the status of some famous artists:

Jimmy Page = Legendary Guitarist and Master Song Thief

A.P. Carter = Legendary Country Artists and Master Song Thief

[Jackoguitar]

Meh, i could care less if people 'stole' songs. I borrow progressions and licks every so often and make my own songs and no one notices. IMO the whole notion of song ownership is crap, although out and out ripping off someone elses entire song without acknoledging it would annoying.

[double rocker]

Ok, Sort of on the topic, listen to the outro on VH's Panama and then listen to the outro on Steely Dan's Bodhisatva. Same outro. There's eight notes and a couple sharps and flats. What does this historian want us to do, play in UHF? If it was on Howard Stern, it was bull{censored}. However, I will be buying a Surfpick as soon as I can convince my wife I need one. -Jacksix

interesting. speaking of panama, i always thought parts of that and ratt's "round and round" sounded very much the same, and was always surprised that there wasn't a lawsuit in that case.

[Ra_]

 

Did anyone from Spirit ever way in on the whole issue?

 

 

I think they said that the dude from Spirit is dead

and that his Mother is trying to get something going?

[gtrbarbarian]

This thread = dog ca ca

History of music = imitate, change, compose

ever hear a composition based on a I IV V or a II V I or a I vi II V ?

Here's a better question: which band that has made it big, if you were to look at their influences hasn't melded songs from those influences into their repertoire?

:blah:

[reidonius]

 

You're right; Star Wars owes a lot of its character development to Kurosawa's The Hidden Fortress. Kurosawa has been "borrowed from" many times. A Fistful of Dollars is a reworking of Kurosawa's Yojimbo. The Seven Samurai was redone in Hollywood as The Magnificent Seven.

 

I'm not an expert, but weren't a lot of Kurosawa's plotlines basically "stock?" I know Ran was based largely on Shakespeare's King Lear. But Kurosawa is celebrated for more than his ability to come up with a basic plotline. It was all about the execution. Same goes for many of the musical artists in question.

[sonnyg84]

This thread = dog ca ca History of music = imitate, change, compose ever hear a composition based on a I IV V or a II V I or a I vi II V ? Here's a better question: which band that has made it big, if you were to look at their influences hasn't melded songs from those influences into their repertoire? :blah:

Thank you, that says it all.