Members garthman Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 I would think the unwaxed pups of the time played a hand in it all. Doubt it, they would have only accentuated any vibrational interference, not caused it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted October 5, 2007 Moderators Share Posted October 5, 2007 For an acoustic guitar, experiments conducted in the 19th centrury using different materials discovered that the contribution of each body section to the sound of the instrument is apportioned as follows:Top: 85%Bottom: 10%Sides and neck: 5%From this you would expect the fretboard (which only makes up about 1/4 or less of the neck) to contribute very little indeed to the sound. This is not really suprising. The main point of the fretbaod is to enable the string length to be altered to change its tone so the wood here is subject to a lot of wear and tear so tough hardwoods are traditionally used (ebony and rosewood, mainly - maple is a recent "fad" and when used is almost always coated with a tough finish). Any contribution to the sound would of course be even less on an electric guitar because wood vibrations will not be detacted by the pickup. Source? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vonscott Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 If everything else about the guitars was exactly the same. Right, Only if the they are exactly the same. Even then there can be differences, how many of you have tried out a few of the SAME MODEL of guitar and found one of them to stand out sound wise. Or on the other end a few sounded great and one was a dog! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 Source? It was some guy in the 19C - sorry forget his name, it was something I read about many years ago - he made guitars using stuff like papiermache to try to find out how the sound was effected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 Well, I'm off for a weekend break, I'll be back Monday so have a nice time in my absence. I'll leave you with something to think about: If wood makes all this difference that many of you think it does, how does that most highly esteemed guitar (and I don't want to start another debate here) the Stratocaster make out when the PU's are attached to a piece of plastic not to the wood at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ChihliDog Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 All I can add to this debate is that All of my guitars have sounded different, and I do believe that wood and pickups have the biggest effect on this. I had an EPiphone that sounded thin NO MATTER WHAT PICKUPS WERE IN IT. It wasnt mahogany, I assume it was alder. My mahogany guitars always sound thicker than that thing did. Again, no matter what pickups are in them. I dont need to get technical or scientific about it. Mahogany sounds FATTER to me. Simple. Ive never met an Agathis guitar I liked, but YMMV. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Doctor Morbius Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 I'm not going to pick sides as I'm not on a crusade, but this really killed the tonewood argument for me...http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24167354&postcount=17Also, while I've not seen or read any peer reviewed scientific studies stating that wood doesn't matter, I've not seen one stating that it does either. If anyone has any links, feel free to post them. My guess is the guitar business is full of mythos and hype just like any other capitalistic industry. If there are studies of this nature, they have probably been sponsored by the manufacturers, which makes the argument mute (pun intended). If someone were to build guitars using the best bridges, pickups, tuners, nuts, amps and other components available and use a wood associated with cheap guitars (Agathis, Basswood, laminate, MDF) I seriously doubt if anyone would be able to tell the difference in tone in a blind folded test. A female perhaps or a dog maybe, but not some male who has spent a lot of time in front of an amp at loud volumes and gone to too many rock concerts. Too much hearing loss in the upper ranges for that to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Acid Test Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 Garthman, You have raised some interesting points, but I have to believe what I hear with my ears. Not being able to hear the difference is nothing to be ashamed of - you simply don't hear a difference. My case and point - I own a Epiphone Les Paul custom limited edition with the silver hardware that is really different. It was marked a second but decided to give it a play at a local store. It took me all of 2 minutes to realize this particular guitar was really different. I have owned and played other Gibson and Epiphone Les Pauls in the past. In the last two years, I have had at least 6 people give it a play, all of which were very impressed. This includes the eclectic rare guitar collector luthier that did the set up, a former lead guitarist from Head East, and the latest a local musician who offered me $1000 for it!! Btw, he owns a Gibson custom Les Paul and commented that the Epi was much better. The guy who did the set up is a former Gibson employee, the author of several guitar magazine columns and the owner of dozens of rare guitars. He played the guitar for about 30 minutes when I went to pick it up and had to cut him off. My point is that the hardware and electronics are the same as most any other Epiphone custom yet the guitar sound unique. This thread has had several people post, most say they can hear a difference. Maybe some of them are easily persuaded by false information or advertising, but the majority know the truth and what they hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Acid Test Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 I'm not going to pick sides as I'm not on a crusade, but this really killed the tonewood argument for me... http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24167354&postcount=17Also, while I've not seen or read any peer reviewed scientific studies stating that wood doesn't matter, I've not seen one stating that it does either. If anyone has any links, feel free to post them. My guess is the guitar business is full of mythos and hype just like any other capitalistic industry. If there are studies of this nature, they have probably been sponsored by the manufacturers, which makes the argument mute (pun intended). If someone were to build guitars using the best bridges, pickups, tuners, nuts, amps and other components available and use a wood associated with cheap guitars (Agathis, Basswood, laminate, MDF) I seriously doubt if anyone would be able to tell the difference in tone in a blind folded test. A female perhaps or a dog maybe, but not some male who has spent a lot of time in front of an amp at loud volumes and gone to too many rock concerts. Too much hearing loss in the upper ranges for that to be the case. I think the guitar sounds like crap and you can also hear the sharpness of the low bit rate mp3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Burningleaves Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 Doubt it, they would have only accentuated any vibrational interference, not caused it. Ya, That's what I meant by played a part in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Burningleaves Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 I'm not going to pick sides as I'm not on a crusade, but this really killed the tonewood argument for me... http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24167354&postcount=17Also, while I've not seen or read any peer reviewed scientific studies stating that wood doesn't matter, I've not seen one stating that it does either. If anyone has any links, feel free to post them. My guess is the guitar business is full of mythos and hype just like any other capitalistic industry. If there are studies of this nature, they have probably been sponsored by the manufacturers, which makes the argument mute (pun intended). If someone were to build guitars using the best bridges, pickups, tuners, nuts, amps and other components available and use a wood associated with cheap guitars (Agathis, Basswood, laminate, MDF) I seriously doubt if anyone would be able to tell the difference in tone in a blind folded test. A female perhaps or a dog maybe, but not some male who has spent a lot of time in front of an amp at loud volumes and gone to too many rock concerts. Too much hearing loss in the upper ranges for that to be the case. Cool test. Now if only the neck were MFD as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Burningleaves Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 I think the guitar sounds like crap and you can also hear the sharpness of the low bit rate mp3. I was not blown away by the clip tone wise either. Cool experiment all the way around though. I am glad folks are going to those kind of lengths to prove something one way or the other. Or at the very least throw some new data in the mix. That dude should make the same spec body less wood type and throw the neck and hardware on that to see what it sounds like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ratae Corieltauvorum Posted October 5, 2007 Moderators Share Posted October 5, 2007 I was not blown away by the clip tone wise either. Cool experiment all the way around though. I am glad folks are going to those kind of lengths to prove something one way or the other. Or at the very least throw some new data in the mix.That dude should make the same spec body less wood type and throw the neck and hardware on that to see what it sounds like. To be honest that mdf thing makes {censored} all difference until someone stands/sits in a gig venue and plays it thru a PA with backing musicians....then you'll see people who think that Tonewood is Mrs Woods son, get up and leave the gig, cause of some {censored}in awful sounding string thing, makin some godawful noise:wave: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Burningleaves Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 To be honest that mdf thing makes {censored} all difference until someone stands/sits in a gig venue and plays it thru a PA with backing musicians....then you'll see people who think that Tonewood is Mrs Woods son, get up and leave the gig, cause of some {censored}in awful sounding string thing, makin some godawful noise:wave: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members P.O.T.O Posted October 6, 2007 Members Share Posted October 6, 2007 Well, I'm off for a weekend break, I'll be back Monday so have a nice time in my absence. I'll leave you with something to think about: If wood makes all this difference that many of you think it does, how does that most highly esteemed guitar (and I don't want to start another debate here) the Stratocaster make out when the PU's are attached to a piece of plastic not to the wood at all? It's not as much where the pickups are mounted, but different type's of wood cause different string vibration, which consequently affects magnetic field of the pickup, leading to a different signal being send to your amp, guitar pickup is only "microphone" for the guitar...of course PUP's affect the sound (different outputs, magnetic field etc.), so does the amp, but it's wrong to say that wood doesn't matter at all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted October 7, 2007 Members Share Posted October 7, 2007 It's not as much where the pickups are mounted, but different type's of wood cause different string vibration, which consequently affects magnetic field of the pickup, leading to a different signal being send to your amp, guitar pickup is only "microphone" for the guitar... of course PUP's affect the sound (different outputs, magnetic field etc.), so does the amp, but it's wrong to say that wood doesn't matter at all... Well, if different woods do effect the sound, to my mind it can only happen in two (either/or, or both) possible ways: (1) the type of wood in some way alters the way in which the string vibrates (as opposed to the way the string would normally vibrate if stretched between two fixed points). If this is so, then in some way energy from the vibrating string would have to be absorbed by the wood, changed (?) depending on the type of wood, and then be transfered back to the string so that the string vibrates in a different way. And of course, this "change" would need to be of sufficient magnitude to be detected over and above the initial vibration (because of course the string is actually vibrating freely between two points, viz, the bridge and fret) and this initial vibration is being detected by the PU sitting under the string. Or,(2) the vibration of the strings sets up sympathetic vibrations in the wood which cause the PU to vibrate and the intereference between the two vibrations (string and PU) cause a different sound depending on how the wood transfers the vibration. Again, one would need to question the magnitude of the effect. (Hence my remarks about the stratocaster and the work of Les Paul).Now if any of you good "wood" folk seriously believe that the wood is going to make more difference than the smallest tweak of the tone control, then the best of luck to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GRANKOR Posted October 7, 2007 Members Share Posted October 7, 2007 a tweak of the tone control can only cut treble content Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted October 7, 2007 Members Share Posted October 7, 2007 You're using some 19th century physics experiment while speaking of 21st century instruments. That's refreshing. Have you found any other "old news" that I might be missing? Surely you can't tell me that you can't tell the difference in say, maple and rosewood as fretboard materials...all other things being equal. Few makers use anything other that maple, (EI & BR) rosewood, cedar, and mahogany for NECKS...and while I don't "hear" much discernable difference in those, I certainly do in regard to fretboard materials.Read up on "note bloom". Well, a guy called Eratosthenes measured the circumference of the Earth almost 2500 years ago. Got it right too. Newton derived the Laws of Gravity about 500 years ago - he was also right. If you can tell me how the laws of physics have changed in the last couple of hundred years so as to invalidate those experiments, it might go some way to raising my opinions of your intellectual prowess. Oh, and BTW, maple fretboards are usually quite light in colour, ebony ones are quite dark and rosewood ones are somewhere in-between. That's just about how much difference they make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Le Blur Posted October 7, 2007 Members Share Posted October 7, 2007 Well, it's simple physics, surely! Both acoustic and electic guitars use the fact that a vibrating string produces a sound but there the similarity ends because different scientific principles are used to amplify the sound.In an acoustic guitar, the vibration of the string is transfered via the bridge to the top of the guitar which is made from a very thin sheet of wood. The top vibrates in sympathy with the string and causes air molecules inside the guitar to vibrate. The vibrating air column travels to the bottom of the guitar where it is reflected back and issues from the soundhole to be detected by the ear. In effect the body of an acoustic guitar acts like a pump that sends out pulses of vibrating air molecules.An electic guitar amplifies the sound of the vibrating string using a completely different principle. Here, the vibrations of the string cause a flux in the magentic field generated by the powerful magnet contained in a pickup. The magnetic flux in turn causes a small electric field in the copper windings of the pickup poles ("electromagnetic induction", a principle discovered by Michael Faraday in 1831). The weak current is then transfered (through the volume and tone controls via a connecting cable) to an amplifier which massively increases the strength of the signal which activates a loudspeaker diaphram which in turn causes air molecules to vibrate which are then detected by the ear.Now over the years it has been found that certain woods (known as tonewoods) work better than others in acoustic guitars. This is mainly because they are close-grained woods that are strong enough to be cut into thin sheets and also are more easily worked (especially in years gone by when handtools were used). However, the opposite applies for electic guitars which are made from a solid plank of wood precisely to reduce vibration in the wood. When Les Paul first experimented with magnetic PU's he mounted them on top of acoustic guitars but discovered that the vibrating top caused the PU itself to vibrate which caused interference which produced a muffled sound. He had made a solid guitar which solved the problem.That's how it works. If you doubters want to believe someting else, that's your business (I know the world is not flat). Les Paul also realized that he couldn't get good tone from a plank with pickups on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 Les Paul also realized that he couldn't get good tone from a plank with pickups on it. That's basically what a Les Paul guitar is, my friend. And apparently you can get a good tone out of anything if you stick PU's on it - check out this thread: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1766257 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GarysBlues Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 You have to check out GC and A/B a Vintage Mahogany LP and a LP-Standard. You WILL here the difference in the two guitars. Which are exactly the same .....except one hasa Mahogany Top the other a Flamed Maple. Do you really think I would foolish enough to buy both if their were no Tonal difference. Spec wise and pups are identicle. Only difference is the WOOD TOP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 And how about Plexiglass? Beats swamp ash 10 times outta 10. (Swamp ash! - what a larf!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GarysBlues Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 Here's the above shot of the two LP's I'm telling you about. The VM is in the middle and the LP-Standard on the right. Both necks are 50;s both hjave BB=Pro pick-ups and the exact same electronics, bridge , Stop Tail and build spec's. The Standard had binding the VM doesn't ONLY Diff beside the Wood Tops! They defianatly sound very different. Enough so where I now know that I prefer Mahogany Top LP's! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 If anyone has a couple of hours to spare, read this:http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1636286 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dmerge Posted October 8, 2007 Members Share Posted October 8, 2007 You have to check out GC and A/B a Vintage Mahogany LP and a LP-Standard. You WILL here the difference in the two guitars. Which are exactly the same .....except one hasa Mahogany Top the other a Flamed Maple. Do you really think I would foolish enough to buy both if their were no Tonal difference. Spec wise and pups are identicle. Only difference is the WOOD TOP. And the covered pickups.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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