Members iCombs Posted December 4, 2006 Members Share Posted December 4, 2006 I got a chance to listen to the clip a few times. All I can say is WOW. Amazing. The Orchestra is so incredible! One heartbeat...just incredible! The trobone solo is of great interest. Since he was facing into a corner, his solo is captured only in reflection. It's interesting to hear the trombone wash across the stereo spectrum...like it's the ghost of the trombone solo...it floats around the room, especially in contrast with the drums, the bass, guitar, and vocals which are all very sharply localized. I'd be interested to know a little more about this mix...I hear reverb on Joe Williams' fantastic vocal...plate? chamber? I understand that there was a stereo pair of mics in the room (i assume in the diffuse field to help support the direct sounds with that of a great room), but I'm curious as to how the orchestra was miked more specifically. I feel too much proximity from the horns to think that they were only captured by a stereo pair of mics. However, I could be sorely mistaken, but the bass especially is very well defined and feels very "close" in the mix. This is a great study in how stereo recording (and unorthodox recording technique) can be used to bring forth emotion in a performance. I'll be very interested to hear what some of the other thought on this clip is! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members daklander Posted December 5, 2006 Members Share Posted December 5, 2006 Originally posted by iCombs I got a chance to listen to the clip a few times. All I can say is WOW. Amazing. The Orchestra is so incredible! One heartbeat...just incredible!The trobone solo is of great interest. Since he was facing into a corner, his solo is captured only in reflection. It's interesting to hear the trombone wash across the stereo spectrum...like it's the ghost of the trombone solo...it floats around the room, especially in contrast with the drums, the bass, guitar, and vocals which are all very sharply localized.I'd be interested to know a little more about this mix...I hear reverb on Joe Williams' fantastic vocal...plate? chamber? I understand that there was a stereo pair of mics in the room (i assume in the diffuse field to help support the direct sounds with that of a great room), but I'm curious as to how the orchestra was miked more specifically. I feel too much proximity from the horns to think that they were only captured by a stereo pair of mics. However, I could be sorely mistaken, but the bass especially is very well defined and feels very "close" in the mix.This is a great study in how stereo recording (and unorthodox recording technique) can be used to bring forth emotion in a performance. I'll be very interested to hear what some of the other thought on this clip is! You've expressed my thoughts succinctly.The trombone counterpoint solo washing across the stereo field is amazing. I'd have guessed a pair of mics on the solo horn except there's the room involved in it too. As to the vocal, if it hadn't had what I hear as proximity effect I'd think it was miked from some distance. The 'verb is like a vocal distant miked that caught the room too, but keeping the quality of the voice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Extreme Mixing Posted December 5, 2006 Members Share Posted December 5, 2006 Nice recording, Bruce. The trombone really fits the music and sets the tone for the smokey feeling of the song. You can really feel the size of the room. I suppose it's not unlike recording the reflection of the French Horns in the orchestra. I'm always amazed at how large and clear they sound even with no direct mics. I also love the hard panning of the stereo field--no wimpy 10 and 2o'clock there! That leaves the space wide open for the stereo trombone. I took your advice years ago and started buying microphones. I have several--probably more than I need--but I'm out looking again now. Any suggestions on a large diaphragm tube microphone? I'm thinking of going with a small cottage style production mic. I have a few things in mind, but would love to hear your suggestion. My thinking is that this will give me something unique that not EVERYONE ELSE has. I will be listening to them before I buy. I still have my StudioTechnologies MicPreminence, and use it from time to time. How about you? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 5, 2006 Members Share Posted December 5, 2006 Damn.Damn, that sounds good. I think just about everyone here knows I won't rave about something unless I mean it (William Shatner's beautiful interpretations of "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" aside ), but that's a great recording. It's beautiful, dynamic, alive, and emotional with a strong sense of space and a *wide* stereo field. I love dynamic, vibrant recordings that live and breathe. The trombone part with the voice was really cool. What I like about it is that it offers another strong lead melody part without stompin' all over the vocals, something I'm sure you thought about before doing. By putting it in a "different" space from the vocals, the two melody lines don't step all over each other, and as a bonus, it further imparts a sense of the room.To add further to the contrast, I was just listening to some metal stuff where there is not a very wide stereo sound field and where the waveforms look like freakin' 2x4s...it's crushed. Sounds burly, but it's crushed. I went from that to listening to your recording!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 5, 2006 Members Share Posted December 5, 2006 Originally posted by Extreme Mixing You can really feel the size of the room. I suppose it's not unlike recording the reflection of the French Horns in the orchestra. I'm always amazed at how large and clear they sound even with no direct mics.Yup. I tried to write my reaction without looking at other people's stuff, so now I'm kinda reacting to other people's observations. I took your advice years ago and started buying microphones. I have several--probably more than I need--Oh, so there is such a thing then? but I'm out looking again now. Any suggestions on a large diaphragm tube microphone? I dunno how much you wanna spend, but a Lawson L251 doesn't suck for the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted December 5, 2006 Members Share Posted December 5, 2006 I listened to it several times last night. What a beautiful recording of a fantastic performance!In addition to similar thoughts to those who previously listened and posted, I was struck by the images that formed in my head based on what I heard.The trombone being so present, yet tonally so different than had it been direct into a nearby mic brought images of night time, a player on a balcony off an apartment in an alley riffing to a recording. The vocal and rhythm back up are so intimate, the reflections of the trombone naturally lay back in the mix while still grabbing enough of my attention to follow the counterpoint.I have to find this album! You had the four columns of a great recording, Bruce. Specifically, your decision to create more depth in this recording takes it from a decent recording of a great performance to a great recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 5, 2006 Members Share Posted December 5, 2006 A recording like that also makes it obvious why a great room is so important to a great recording. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted December 5, 2006 Members Share Posted December 5, 2006 Originally posted by UstadKhanAli A recording like that also makes it obvious why a great room is so important to a great recording. No doubt. Just as I was learning about all the great recording studios that evolved in Chicago, particularly Universal's Studio A, I read a story in the Chicago Tribune about the demolition of Studio A. As they put it, Studio A was the last big studio in Chicago (and one of the few outside film studio soundstages on the west coast) capable of recording a full orchestra. By the time I learned about Studio A it had been gutted after Universal moved to a high rise complex of small, digital audio suites. Unfortunately, the cost of moving and upgrading everything bankrupted the studio. My friend's father sold his studio to Columbia College in Chicago and bought the "new" Universal digs. I believe he sold it a few years later when he accepted a full time position at Columbia's film school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bruce Swedien Posted December 5, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 5, 2006 This is why I love the Forum.... Your wonderful and very intelligent thoughts in response to what I gave you to listen to make this a very worthwhile experience for me as well.... Here's something else.... What is Stereo To ME AND (Perhaps more important) what is Stereo To YOU???? __________________________________________________ I don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 5, 2006 Members Share Posted December 5, 2006 A bit of "sonic fantasy" mixed with realism, which can serve to "ground" the "sonic fantasy", is frequently an interesting place to be. I find that straddling the fence between complete fantasy and believability is artistically an interesting place to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dahkter Posted December 6, 2006 Members Share Posted December 6, 2006 Greetings forumites,Just finished listening to this Basie song that Bruce recorded.For those of you who were not sent a copy, it's a gorgeous big band piece that Bruce recorded on a hot summer evening in 1960 at Universal's Studio A in Chicago. It's an amazing six minutes that really captures a moment in time beautifully. Awesome.For those of you who were sent a copy:As Khan mentioned, it's nice to hear peaks and valleys in a piece of recorded music, definitely a crisp and fresh sensation.To my ears, the overall tone of the recording is warm and buttery. Starting with a breath of fresh air with the snare and horn intro, then leading into the syrupy laid back groove of the verse. Burce, thank you for pointing out the trombone solo. I listened to the song once, then I read your notes. When I went back and listened to the song a second time, I focused in on the tromobone. Great stuff, I could hear the solo crawling up the walls, almost hugging the rest of the music. It's really an amazing effect. It just brings everything together wonderfully, and sounds so right you almost don't notice it. As other listeners were mentioning, the countermelody and melody of the trombone and vocal coexist nicely, they're not fighting each other for space. Overall the spaciousness of the recording is incredible, it's like being in Yosemite park, it's big, man.You make it look and sound easy Bruce, like the true master.It's a pleasure to experience these sonic delights, many thanks.Best regards,DahkterPS - If you have any other tasty treats lying around the vaults, well...you know where I'm going with this, right Bruce? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted December 6, 2006 Members Share Posted December 6, 2006 You really should listen to your dahkter, Brucie! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bruce Swedien Posted December 6, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 6, 2006 Originally posted by UstadKhanAli A bit of "sonic fantasy" mixed with realism, which can serve to "ground" the "sonic fantasy", is frequently an interesting place to be. I find that straddling the fence between complete fantasy and believability is artistically an interesting place to be. UstadKhanAli......Excellent thoughts. Straddling the fence between complete fantasy and believability is many times the ONLY place to be. Not always however. It depends on the music involved.Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Extreme Mixing Posted December 6, 2006 Members Share Posted December 6, 2006 You are spot on about reality. For recording, whatever comes out of the speakers becomes reality. It's the way the song will be remembered by people forever. The trick is to make it seem, to the listener, like it was just always that way, like no one was there pulling the strings. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bruce Swedien Posted December 6, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 6, 2006 Originally posted by dahkter Greetings forumites, Just finished listening to this Basie song that Bruce recorded. It's a gorgeous big band piece that Bruce recorded on a hot summer evening in 1960 at Universal's Studio A in Chicago. It's an amazing six minutes that really captures a moment in time beautifully. Awesome. As Khan mentioned, it's nice to hear peaks and valleys in a piece of recorded music, definitely a crisp and fresh sensation. To my ears, the overall tone of the recording is warm and buttery. Starting with It's a pleasure to experience these sonic delights, many thanks. Best regards, Dahkter PS - If you have any other tasty treats lying around the vaults, well...you know where I'm going with this, right Bruce? dahkter......You are very perceptive and I really love your descriptions of the sound of that piece of music. As our pal Neil said, that gorgeous room has been demolished. What a pity... I am in the process of building my studio again and I can't get at much of my archives yet. I think maybe in March....Thanks....Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Han Posted December 6, 2006 Members Share Posted December 6, 2006 You guys make me very, very curious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted December 6, 2006 Moderators Share Posted December 6, 2006 I just had a chance to listen... I love this recording. The contrast between Joe Williams "floating" in space with his warm vocal resonance, right there in your face, and the woodwinds off to the right playing so sultry and restrained... wow. The loud burst of FFF! from the snare and horns, yowww! Then back down. All of this is nicely cushioned by the stereo ambience of that room. Basie's fills behind Williams are set back just enough to not take away, yet present enough to make the needed statement. The bass is pushing out a nice ambient 1 and 3 that just excites the room in such a subtle way. Then there's that 'bone facing away... whew. That is quite a trick. Still surprisingly present yet utilizing an additional ambience most wouldn't have thought to use. Turn your back on the audience! Someone made a comment about it sounding like a casual, off the balcony kind of thing. That really does conjure images... Bruce, can you elaborate on how you did it? Mic positions, how many? Etc.? Beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted December 6, 2006 Moderators Share Posted December 6, 2006 . ..and, where in this recording did you deviate from sonic reality and venture into sonic fantasy? "In other words, Since the middle 1960 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bruce Swedien Posted December 6, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 6, 2006 Forumites....I've been digging through all my doo-doo to find the studio set-up from the Basie Sessions. What a mess! Beasie and I just moved a few months ago and so I can't find anything!!!BUT..... I did find a studio set-up from 9 years later from a session that I did with Basie's Band. Same set-up.... No vocal, no Trombone solo, but ask me some questions. I will tell you no lies....Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bruce Swedien Posted December 6, 2006 Author Members Share Posted December 6, 2006 I didn't get it!Help! Can someone email this thing for me???Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted December 6, 2006 Members Share Posted December 6, 2006 What do you need help with? I can email something out, or walk you through sumpin'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted December 6, 2006 Members Share Posted December 6, 2006 Here's the setup from Bruce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted December 6, 2006 Members Share Posted December 6, 2006 {edit} Whoops! Didn't read all of Bruce's post about this. {end edit}Hey Bruce, am I mis-reading this or was the gig in either 1964 or 1969 rather than 1960? (Or is that a stray mark that looks like part of the recording date?)Thanks for providing this sheet! I've always loved pouring over historical documents of all kinds. Even better when it's the road map for a classic session! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members iCombs Posted December 7, 2006 Members Share Posted December 7, 2006 If you look up a couple posts, he says that this is from a session 9 years later. Not a misquote or typo. I'm also going to guess that you didn't have 87's for the original session...which begs the question...what did you use for those applications before you had 87's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fantasticsound Posted December 7, 2006 Members Share Posted December 7, 2006 Doh! I was so busy posting Bruce's picture I didn't read his post thoroughly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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