Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 2, 2007 Members Share Posted October 2, 2007 Wow, this thing is crushed. I can hear a lot of pumping, such as when the vocals or kick drum come in. It's really heavy-handed. Anyone hear this CD yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted October 2, 2007 Members Share Posted October 2, 2007 The last couple Foo discs have been... gawd, I can't even talk about it. I have no idea what's going on there. Or what the point is. I mean, it's unlistenable. I cannot listen to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Magpel Posted October 2, 2007 Members Share Posted October 2, 2007 I was listening to something with such excessive vocal compression...yeah, it was "Can't Stop" on RHCP's By the Way. Listen to the last couple of acapella lines. Whoa. It's like the LA2A (or whatever compressor was used) is the instrument itself and not Anthony's voice. Abosultely air-tight squash. I found myself having to go outside just to breathe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted October 2, 2007 Members Share Posted October 2, 2007 See... the problem is not what most folks think -- simply too much program limiting/compression. The real problem is that when you have that kind of soul-crushing, air-sucking compression you also have to have massive amounts of full-auto AutoTune to "balance" things out... One without the other is like, I don't know, pounding nails into your hand without also first smacking your head against a concrete building a number of times... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members philbo Posted October 2, 2007 Members Share Posted October 2, 2007 That's too bad - they're one of the newer bands I like. We (Freq Loop, my band) play a cover of 'Everlong' - that one has some fairly awesome dynamic range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 3, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 3, 2007 I almost used the term "ducking" to describe what happens on some of the songs when the drums punch in on the intros, then stop playing for a measure, then punch in again, etc. You can hear the guitar drop down instantly, then rise up again in volume. Really heavy-handed. Really, this does not sound good at all. I LOVE the newest RHCP 2-CD release. It's some fantastic music. And that's crushed too. But I find this new Foo Fighters release to be even more heavy-handed in its compression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted October 3, 2007 Members Share Posted October 3, 2007 I have to say that the 'mastering' for one of the few contemporary rock bands I really like, Modest Mouse, is often painfully overcompressed. It's not as bad as a lot of stuff, maybe, but it's plenty bad enough for a band that should have so much room in a lot of their music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted October 3, 2007 Members Share Posted October 3, 2007 Big question: is it done out of ignorance... or conscientously as a "sound" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Synonym Music Posted October 3, 2007 Members Share Posted October 3, 2007 Big question: is it done out of ignorance... or conscientously as a "sound" ? Correction: is it done out of ignorance... or conscientiously as a "crappy sound" ? Sorry but you'd have quite an argument on your hands were this in the defense of art. It sounds like {censored} plain and simple, otherwise we wouldn't have these threads. Dance music has been doing it, though in that genre you compress the reverb. It's kind of a similar effect.. (especially considering the hotness of reverb tails you'd get with loud mastering anyway). You'd think they could at least use different compressors or settings for different parts of a song - maybe it could help - but nooooooooooo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cry Logic Posted October 3, 2007 Members Share Posted October 3, 2007 This kind of thing has been happening for so long nowI think it's safe to assume it is "The New Sound". I don't hear many kids saying "The new Foo Fighters Albumsucks .... it's way over compressed...".I do hear many kids saying "The new Foo Fighters album is awesome man!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kendrix Posted October 3, 2007 Members Share Posted October 3, 2007 Same deal on their previous album.I love the energy and the tunes.However, I can barely stand to listen to it on a good system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Han Posted October 3, 2007 Members Share Posted October 3, 2007 I once bought a Neumann M149 microphone because of it's sound quality, can you imagine that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bp Posted October 3, 2007 Members Share Posted October 3, 2007 When I master stuff, I often have the label(s) ask for a louder remaster. The most common reason is that it doesn't sems as loud as other (insert overly squashed band here) stuff on my iPod. AAARRGGHHH!!!! IS THAT LOUD ENOUGH FOR YA! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cry Logic Posted October 3, 2007 Members Share Posted October 3, 2007 IMHO it's way too late to be bemoaning the fact that most of today's musicis overly compressed to the point of compromising the fidelity. The majority of today's music consumers don't care about fidelity.They want it loud and they want it now.....To be perceived as not as loud as the previous or next songin the list is anathema!It's got to the point where music that isn't squashed sounds old fashionedand out of date....This is a sea change in musical perception.It's generational to a large extent.It's one of the many things that defines today'sgeneration from yesterdays... Just like music with distorted guitar defined the rock generationfrom previous ones.....To this day there are many older people who can't stand distorted guitar.Or music being played VERY LOUD!!!But it never went away.... it's more popular than ever now.People who complain and moan about overly compressed music remind me of the older generation who complain about distorted guitar or music being played too loud....They are a part of the previous paradigm and largely irrelevant to the new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 4, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 4, 2007 Fretwizz, I don't care about "majority of today's music consumers" who don't care about fidelity. I'm an audio engineer and a musician. I care about fidelity, and that's all that matters. Music has become increasingly heavily compressed for about twenty years now, particularly pop and rock music. But regardless, if something really sticks out in my head as being highly detrimental to the music, I'm interested in discussing it. I didn't start a thread on the RHCP most recent release even though it too is heavily compressed. I didn't start a thread on Kanye West's or Timbaland's stuff being heavily compressed either. But when I can hear pumping and breathing this obvious, since I'm interested in audio, I'm going to want to discuss it. Have you heard the CD? It's not just loud - it sounds like it's being "ducked". Maybe you should listen to what we're talking about before making assumptions and insinuating that I'm similar to older generations that didn't like loud guitars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 4, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 4, 2007 And by the way, if we, as audio engineers, don't care about music quality, who should? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cry Logic Posted October 4, 2007 Members Share Posted October 4, 2007 Maybe you should listen to what we're talking about before making assumptions and insinuating that I'm similar to older generations that didn't like loud guitars. I've got the Album.... Which song in particular were you referring to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 4, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 4, 2007 I've heard the Album.... The point I'm making is: There is nothing you can do to stop it. It's the new way. Has it ever occurred to you that for this phenomenon to be happening at all there must be many audio engineers out there who are making it happen? Why don't they stop doing it? No one wants to have the quietest music. That's why audio engineers do it. It's an aesthetic now. Even when I give bands rough mixes, they all ask, "Hey, why isn't this as loud as my other CDs?" I'm asked to pump up the volumes on rough mixes now. You can't stop it. My band asked our ME repeatedly to not have a totally squashed mix. We sent it back three times because it was too squished. That was our decision, and we're happy with the dynamics. But I recognize that, for other people, that's not so important, and they want their CD to be louder. But you can get a CD that's sinfully loud without having as much pumping and breathing - compression artifacts - as the Foo Fighters CD. I mean, when you have vocals or drums come in and the bass and guitars immediately duck, that's heavy-handed even by today's standards. And so that's why I posted this. So do I think my single post is going to stop it? While I am the Audio Monk, powerful beyond exaggeration, I use my power and influence for more important reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 4, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 4, 2007 I've got the Album....Which song in particular were you referring to? The third song begins with guitars, and when the kick drum flourishes come in, the guitars "duck" quite a bit. There's a LOT of songs on this CD in which when the vocals enter, the rest of the music "ducks". I don't remember specific instances, but many (if not all) of the songs seem to do this. I didn't notice this amount of pumping with the other releases I've mentioned. BTW, that third song so far is my favorite one on the CD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted October 4, 2007 Members Share Posted October 4, 2007 Gil Norton/Adrian Bushby and Rick Rubin seem to be our direct culprits.... I say we ask them directly. Wassup widdat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Synonym Music Posted October 4, 2007 Members Share Posted October 4, 2007 What about Rich Costey and Brian Gardner? They mixed and mastered... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members franknputer Posted October 4, 2007 Members Share Posted October 4, 2007 The crux of the problem, I believe, is the number of people who equate louder with being better. Part of the blame lies with industry people - radio, producers, label types, etc. who think that because "the other guy" is louder then they are somehow deficient - and thus must "become louder" in order to keep up with/surpass the competition. (I'm curious - has there ever been any empirical evidence to support this, or is it just a holdover from times past, when crappy equipment couldn't be louder?) The real problem, I think, is with their own egos... Part of the problem, though, also lies with the audience & musicians - particularly the ones perpetuating the "make it LOUD!!!" mythology. We've all felt that at one time or another - turn it UP!! - but realistically, you have to recognize a limit at some point. Pete Townshend is deaf, people - and he himself has said that they went overboard with raising the dB levels... Loud is fine - but TOO LOUD is not. You do not have to push up to the pain threshold at the mixer to have a rocking show, especially with today's systems. I've done it myself many times, and been complimented on the sound quality far more than anyone feeling cheated because they could still hear afterwards. I remember going to see Ted Nugent at the Fox Theatre in Atlanta once...and the thing I remember most is that my ears rang for 3 days afterwards. I also remember seeing Eric Johnson at the Cotton Club (a very cool but very small venue in downtown Atlanta) - I was really exciting about seeing him at the time, but he was SO F*CKING LOUD that I had to walk out during the encores...I had literally "stuck it out" for his set, but my head hurt so bad by that time I didn't care anymore - and so my memories are not so much about his guitar artistry, but about the unpleasant experience I had seeing him play. (And, I have not gone to see him since...) I'd venture that most artists would not prefer to have their medium eclipse their art...and I think that's what we've come to. Everything's up to 10 - there's nothing left but to paint "11" on the damn knobs...and the price is the loss of nuance & depth. Consider: what are the basics of music? pitch & volume (forget rhythm for a moment...). Equate pitch to particular colors, and volume to varying shades of these colors (rhythm would equate to brush strokes, in case you couldn't forget it...now, forget it again. ). Remove volume, and you have only primary colors left. Sure, you can paint with only the primary colors, and it's particularly easy to do in-your-face stuff - but having access to the full palate of shades enables you to do far more evocative work, doesn't it? Now, certainly there's something to be said for the market tastes. However, isn't it also our responsibility to educate people, to provide them with the option of something better? Is today's music consumer buying the hyper-compressed music because it's actually more appealing that way, or are they even paying attention? Are they just buying what they can - i.e. what's available - and simply responding to the artists' music because that's what they're really interested in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members alphajerk Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 i saw the poster children in the cotton club, that place i think is just LOUD. i could only imagine jucifer playing there. you might actually pop your eardrums at that show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members UstadKhanAli Posted October 5, 2007 Author Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 If we're talking just sheer volume, the loudest band I've ever experienced by far was a band called Hairy {censored}. I saw them at No Life Record Store in Los Angeles, and literally had to sprint outside because of the pain inflicted on my eardrums. I got those big foam ones that knock 35dB off and went back in and still found them loud but manageable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rasputin1963 Posted October 5, 2007 Members Share Posted October 5, 2007 recognize a limit at some point. Pete Townshend is deaf, people - and he himself has said that they went overboard with raising the dB levels... Frankie Valli, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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