This Whole "Music Should Be Free" Thing

[Super 8]

My problem with it is that my tastes are a bit more discerning, and I'm not interested in watching the 14 year olds mugging on youtube, nor their musical equivalents on myspace, nor their self-indulgent blogs.

 

 

True, but there is lots of other stuff on Youtube/Myspace that you probably would find interesting. It's not all 14 year old poseurs.

I'm not Youtube all the time. I just finished watching a guy called Profmth talk about ethics and morality. He's very interesting.

I love Wikipedia. Costs me nothing.

I enjoy Firefox, which was also free.

 

 

They eat at McDonald's and stand in line at Sizzler when quality small business restaurants go out of business. This is a culture that worships mediocrity, and no longer can tell the difference between {censored} and shineola.

 

 

I eat at McDonalds because it's cheap and quick and consistant. If I want to do something special I don't say; "Well McDonalds is cheaper and food is basically food". No, I pay more and I go to a fancier restaurant. I don't see family owned restaurants folding up the moment McD's comes to town.

 

 

You get what you pay for.

 

 

I disagree. In many cases you get a lot more than you pay for.

[Anderton]

After all these substantive and intelligent posts, which do indeed indicate how complex the problem is, I hate to post something so vague...but my gut feeling is that this a transitional period and a new model will emerge that's different from anything that's happening today. I wish I could know what it's going to be, but I don't...all I know is that things go in cycles, and a situation like the one we have now is fundamentally untenable in the long run.

[alphajerk]

MUSIC isnt a business... they tried to make it one. its an artform, a means of communicating ideas. nothing more. i am all for the collapse of the record industry as it has historically been, maybe a phoenix will rise from the ashes.

i found a bunch of cool ass bands back in the mp3.com days. more than i found from the majors. met a lot of cool people in the process.

[Dean Roddey]

Music IS a business. If you want to be able to have people be musicians professionally, and I think that is absolutely required, then it is a business. You can talk about ideals all you want, but if someone is going to be a professional and provide for their family by doing something, then making money doing it is a requirement, no matter how much they do it because they love it.

I make software because I love doing it, but if I couldn't make a living doing it because everyone stole it, then I'd be doing something else and the software world would lose my contribution.

[blue2blue]

 

 

 

Substitute musicians and songwriters for babies and I think you've got something there.

 

The majors and their trade organizations have no one to blame but themselves.

 

In terms of everything from fairness to public relations, I think they make a certain much maligned presidential administration look competent and benign in comparison.

[Anderton]

Music can be a business or a hobby...just like painting, cooking, or, uh, sex

[Synonym Music]

Music can be a business or a hobby...just like painting, cooking, or, uh, sex

Selling music is a business. Creating music is not. Because some of the products are so crappy these days, you have to work at selling them. It's not about the content at all.

Can you dance to it?

Is it "hot"?

Hopefully it's not "dated."

But a station usually has one or two singles that are "redeemers" where people can smile and say "Wow, finally some REAL music," when these songs play. Everyone has noticed this, right? I can't be the only one.

[Dean Roddey]

Selling music is a business. Creating music is not. Because some of the products are so crappy these days, you have to work at selling them. It's not about the content at all.

 

 

What's thing thing with people just having a need to completely denegrate music these days? I'll say it again, if you are finding new and great music out there right now, then you either aren't looking or your views of what is good music has calcified and you are stuck in the past. There's plenty of good stuff out there.

 

Someone pointed me at this one today, absolutely beautiful:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSIbfzK2spg

 

And watch the Hide and Seek video there as well by her. Amazing use of a vocoder type tool as a musical instrument.

[blue2blue]

Well, I suspect folks probably mean that a lot of the music that get the big label push is crappy...

[billwolfer]

Substitute musicians and songwriters for babies and I think you've got something there.

 

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Anyone who enters into a business agreement needs a good lawyer, whether it's music or any other kind of business deal. I kept my publishing 100% when I signed with a company that had always demanded that artists give it all up. The difference? My attorney. Artists are not the only victims when it comes to business negotiations, and I'm sick of hearing all of this bull{censored} that artists have always been {censored}ed by labels. Yeah, I had to fight my labels a million times to keep them from {censored}ing me, but I never even had to go to court, even when one was trying to steal $150,000 bucks from me on a film deal.

 

Caveat emptor. I'm sick and tired of everyone blaming the labels for everything. Yes, they've been screwing up ever since they all got bought out by giant corporations, and I have no love for the RIAA, but these people were not, and are not stupid. For them, it's a business, and to keep from getting {censored}ed over, an artist has to watch his ass. That's their responsibility.

 

Business is a game, and a weird dance. You might agree to get {censored}ed in the ass without lubrication, but if the contract serves your purposes at the moment, hopefully you enter into it with eyes open. You agree to be violated, because you need to use them to spread the word, or finance your recording, or both. That's how it used to be. Excuse my language, I'm a vulgar man.

[billwolfer]

Many of the people in this thread wouldn't be making much music at all if computers hadn't come along and made it possible for them to do so.

 

 

That might be my problem. I'm from the old school, we made records on two inch tape, and fought like hell to get the opportunity to do so. I worked in the BUSINESS. I was a good producer and songwriter, and I bring these perspectives to this discussion. Now I record digitally, and I am happy to have tools in my house that rival all the great gear that was in the best studios in LA back in the days. But in the end, I have to wonder if music is worth anything today. If not, I'll find something else. At the age of 54 years, I've already re-invented myself a few times. I can do it again.

[classic rocker]

But in the end, I have to wonder if music is worth anything today. .

Unfortunatly I think the worth of music is close to hitting rock bottom if it hasn't already to the mainstream. It's become nothing but trendy filler on an Ipod or background music to TV and movies. I know this is really nothing new, but to me it's just so obvious that nobody really cares these days.What kills me is that there are so many great artists that sound awesome but are not even recieving a fighting chance to have the public hear and evaluate it, however shallow the evaluation may be because of tight playlists and the lack of taking chances on new types of music by major labels.

I believe there is hope though. The very thing that destroyed the old business model is breeding a generation access to all sorts of music it never had before in the click of a mouse. The massified days of quality music seem to be coming to an end as we the consumer have better purchasing power. What will us future rockstars do without those big advances to spend on partying while trying to release an album with some hits to reach the charts??

[alphajerk]

Selling music is a business. Creating music is not..

 

 

exactly. if you cant sell it, there is no business.

[billwolfer]

Then record the music yourselves and sell your CD's for cheap at your shows. Play lots of shows. Teach other wannabe musicians how to play their instruments. There are workarounds to generate more money, but the reality is that making a living in music has never been easy, and it's now getting harder to do. Perhaps at some point this idea of getting rich by being a rockstar will disolve and people will get back to just making and performing music because they love music and like to make their audience happy.

 

 

You know what? I'm very lucky, because I'm not working a day job and I don't have to depend on gigs to survive. I am making a decent living through my songwriter's royalties.

 

The first Mamborama Cd was recorded solely with the idea with the idea that we could sell it at gigs, and we did. Then, the music caught on in Europe, and it exploded way beyond my expectations.

 

As I write all of my diatribes about the state of the business today, I am still making a living on my ASCAP royalties.

 

Like I have said before, what pisses me off is the expectation that the music should be free. I work my ass off to make this {censored}, and I wouldn't complain if nobody liked it, if it was declared a universal piece of {censored}, but my music has been played all over the world. This does not apply to the assholes that say, quit whining, if no one buys your music, it must suck. It gets played, and I sell licenses to put it on compilations, because it IS popular.

 

Cuban music may not be your cup of tea, but I was the first non-Cuban to be nominated for the equivalent of the Cuban Grammy. It was an honor you can't imagine.

 

At the same time, the fans and salsa dancers are almost the worst when it comes to paying for music. They have networks and Yahoo groups to trade mp3s. That's ok; I don't lose money on the recordings, I make money on my songwriter's royalties. But the ATTITUDE pisses me off. It's as though I am expected to provide free music and I get nothing in return. That's where I'm coming from now.

 

And play lots of shows? I wish. Not going to happen in this country anytime soon. The last offer I had from a club in LA was insulting, and they were acting as though they were doing me a favor. Until people in the States will pay us like Europeans are willing to, I refuse to play here. It's a matter of respect.

 

Add to that the fact that I can't bring my Cuban musicians here because of the embargo, and there you have it. I could work here with Cuban-Americans, but I would prefer to use the guys from the records, and they can't get visas.

 

Whatever, I'm still glad I am a musician, and I'm looking forward to figuring out the next step. I'm not a mercenary, but enough of a professional that I feel that what I do has some value. And judging from the thousands of people that download Mamborama for fee, validates my position. If no one cared, I wouldn't complain.

 

Mamborama, if you're interested, is what I've been doing for the the last eight years. Go to mamborama.com if you're interested. [this is so NOt self promotion--I'm beyond giving a {censored}].

 

And BTW, I was never interested in getting rich, although I wouldn't complain about it if it happened. I can't make music that I don't love, it has to be a labor of love. I remain, famously obscure, after all of these years

 

And teaching? OMG, I tried that when I was in college. Can't do it--don't have the patience. I would love to and do share my experience with whoever might be interested, but I can't do for formal lessons. Didn't work.

 

Anyway, I'm not bitching because I'm broke; far from it. It's the {censored}ING PRINCIPLE! Can you get that? I know that my music has value, and the thing is that in this day, everyone is just looking to have music for free. It doesn't matter if it's my {censored}ty music, or the Voice Of God. Nobody wants to pay for it anymore. {censored} 'em.

[alphajerk]

there you go, licensing. probably lots of places to sell music to like commercials, tv, films, porno, etc.

[Dean Roddey]

Anyway, I'm not bitching because I'm broke; far from it. It's the {censored}ING PRINCIPLE! Can you get that? I know that my music has value, and the thing is that in this day, everyone is just looking to have music for free. It doesn't matter if it's my {censored}ty music, or the Voice Of God. Nobody wants to pay for it anymore. {censored} 'em.

 

 

Unfortunately, there are only principles in most people where there is any chance of getting caught not having them. When people can steal with impunity, they do it. If you are short on rationalizations to do so, the entire internet is full of them, from the music sucks so I wouldn't buy it anyway (but somehow I listen to it all the time) to rock stars are rich anyway (but I somehow don't use this rationalization to steal from far richer people since I'd get caught) to the studios rip off the artists (and so not having the artists get any money at all is really stickin ito the man) to DRM is evil (and therefore stealing, which is the entire impetus behind spending many millions to create DRM in the first place, is a fight for the rights of the consumer.)

 

All complete BS but you'll find it all over the place. Go search for studies that argue that file sharing hurts sales vs. doesn't hurt sales. There will be thousands of links to every one of the latter, but almost none to the former type, though they are out there. And personally I don't think you need a study, just look around you at what people you know are doing.

[billwolfer]

there you go, licensing. probably lots of places to sell music to like commercials, tv, films, porno, etc.

 

 

that's a subject for another thread. I was thinking the same, but that option is being {censored}ed up now. I've licensed a lot of my music for other uses, but the market for this is getting worse everyday. There are too many of us making music right now, and it's supply and demand, and the buyers don't give a {censored} for quality. Pump Audio.

 

We, who are enamored of music, and the gizmos and gear that allow us to express our creativity, are, and always will be, exploited for our desire to share our music. We are subsidizing this "free music" {censored}. I also thought that films, licenses for commercials, would be the future, but that market is being exploited as we speak. There are too many of us. Perhaps it's just supply and demand.

[alphajerk]

yeah, they probably used that canned {censored}... whats that app called, smartsound? someting like that with their "mood generator" thing... god the music on that sounds so {censored}ing {censored}ty. maybe get in touch with them to write for them?

[billwolfer]

Look, I've always wanted to get into film scoring, I'm sure there are a lot of us here that have that desire, or perhaps are already doing it. Amd licensing for commercials is a great way to make some bucks from your catalog. I've had both good experiences with this, and bad.

The problem, again, is supply and demand. There are too many people with music available for cable tv shows, commercials, whatever, and now there are companies licensing independent music so cheap it's hardly worth the effort. For me, it wouldn't be worth the time to fill out the contract for the low price these companies are licensing music for. But they deal in volume, volume, volume, and we get the tiny money. muy poco dinero.

To me, the future looks bleak. I wish I was wrong, but I don't think that I am.

And to those of you who have never made your living through your music, try to put yourself in my shoes. Again, I'm not hurting for money, I don't worry about the bills. But this is what I have done for almost thirty years now, and it's disturbing to see these trends. For me, this isn't a hobby, and it's also a matter of respect, because I consider myself a decent musician. It just doesn't sit right with me, can't you see that?

[billwolfer]

Keep your day job, and you get to live in both worlds.

 

 

Music has been my day job for thirty some years now. I guess your mileage has varied.

[alphajerk]

music is rarely a hobby for anyone... its a passion. there is a huge difference between the two. just consider yourself lucky for the past 30 years.

hobbies are like collecting stamps or baseball cards. everyone i know who does music does it because they dont have a choice, they are driven to do it. hobbies are things to pass the time when you are bored.

[billwolfer]

After all these substantive and intelligent posts, which do indeed indicate how complex the problem is, I hate to post something so vague...but my gut feeling is that this a transitional period and a new model will emerge that's different from anything that's happening today. I wish I could know what it's going to be, but I don't...all I know is that things go in cycles, and a situation like the one we have now is fundamentally untenable in the long run.

 

 

I agree with you 100% Craig, but personally, I'm feeling a little frustrated because I've been trying to figure this out (along with a million other people) since 2001. I get more cynical everyday. My mind is open to new business models, but right now, I feel as though spending money on new recordings is just subsidizing people's desire to fill their iPods to capacity. OK, music is free. come over here and work for ME for free for an afternoon. That's going to be a fraction of the time that I spend making one song.

 

And believe me, I wouldn't bitch if no one paid any attention to the music. But Mamborama is super popular in the Salsa clubs in Europe, but the sales don't come even close to reflecting that. How do I know? DJs in Europe have to fill out a form at the end of the night with all of the tunes they played. A portion of the disco's proceeds (10%) go to the performing rights society, and then to ASCAP, and then to me. I make more money from European plays than I do in the States. But the record sales? pffft. That's why I don't do cover tunes.

[Cry Logic]

The Beatles were among the very first acts to actually obtain creative control over what they recorded. They were one of the first acts to break away from the studio system of selecting songs and producers for the artist, telling them what to record. They helped pave the way for the creative explosion that followed. They didn't sign their creative life away, although they made some bad deals in the beginning. You seem to have a problem with anyone making music should also make money, as if that "taints their art" Bull{censored}. If an act sells millions of records, it's because millions of people love their music, and they deserve every penny they get. If their music does inspire and lift people, why do you deem it "selling your soul" to participate in the revenue? We live in a capitalist society, and I don't resent anyone who has made money, no matter how much, from their success.

 

So ...it's true that Americans don't understand Aussie sense of humour?

My post was not meant to be taken so seriously.

It was facetious.....

I loved The Beatles as much as anybody.

"She Loves You" was the 1st song I was ever consciously aware of.

[joncyberboy]

I love that statement; it deserves repeating! One of my favorite rationalizations that I saw recently came from someone who said that if he had to pay .99 cents a song to fill up his 160 gig iPod, it would cost him something like 13,000 dollars. Therefore, he gets his music from torrents and P2P. Back when we all bought albums, we didn't have a goal of filling something up, we just wanted some new music. I imagine there are a lot of people who think they aren't getting their money's worth from their iPod if it isn't filled to near capacity. Crazy {censored}.

 

 

 

haha! There is no sense in that guy's statement. That's like saying "These shelves i just put up can hold 1000 cds. Its going to cost me

[franknputer]

No {censored}, that's just a silly argument. The only reason for the giant iPods is to hold video, podcasts, pictures, your address book, etc. along with your music. No one is really expected to have 160GB of just music.

 

Not to mention, part of the flaw in that argument is buying compressed files from iTunes or such places. If he loaded it with Apple Lossless files, he could get about 6400 songs on it, at full quality. that's maybe 500 CDs worth?