Members Idunno Posted February 8, 2016 Members Share Posted February 8, 2016 Had to order online because not one local store carries them. Went to the M&Ps first, then GC and Sam Ash. Not being a popular item, I can see why they wouldn't carry them. So, the question that comes to mind is has anyone ever tied knots in these strings to simulate ball ends for use in a pinned bridge? No, I don't have a pinned bridge classical. I'm taking a steel string guitar and using it as a cross-over. I get the suspicion that the string might break at the knot and tag me on its way out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted February 8, 2016 Members Share Posted February 8, 2016 I've heard of tying a knot in the string then passing it thru the ball end cut off of an old steel string - that apparently gives you a larger area for the pin to lock against. John Pearse also has some new very light gauge ball end strings - that is what was on the old Washburn parlor that I just worked on. You'd have to order them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted February 8, 2016 Members Share Posted February 8, 2016 Had to order online because not one local store carries them. Went to the M&Ps first' date=' then GC and Sam Ash. Not being a popular item, I can see why they wouldn't carry them. So, the question that comes to mind is has anyone ever tied knots in these strings to simulate ball ends for use in a pinned bridge? No, I don't have a pinned bridge classical. I'm taking a steel string guitar and using it as a cross-over. I get the suspicion that the string might break at the knot and tag me on its way out.[/quote'] Joe. Yes, you can tie knots in the end of the strings. One knot will do for the 3rd, 5th and 6th strings, two knots - one on top of the other - is better for the 1st, 2nd and 4th strings. I did this for several years for my nylon string dreadnought and it worked fine. These days I use craft beads - I found a pack of beads of just the right size to fit into a bridgepin hole - again you need to tie a knot in the string then thread on a bead. Gives a little more security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Idunno Posted February 8, 2016 Author Members Share Posted February 8, 2016 Beads. Great idea. Howard, when you say "one on top of the other" you mean stacked, right? This being the 1st set of nylon strings going onto this guitar, in place of steel strings, I'll probably have to enlarge the nut slots. No big deal. I have all the small jeweler files. I might just cut a new nut with spacing a smidge wider than the stock nut. Freeman, I'm thinking the heaviest set of strings I can get at the moment will be the first to go on. I'm intending for this to be a strictly plugged experiment. I'm driving an HPL, thin section box so I don't expect much from it unplugged. The UST is the only p'up in the Fishman system (Martin 00AXCE) and to-date I've learned I prefer the sound of nylon through a Piezo transducer versus steel string. Or, I should say Piezo does a more faithful job with nylon than it does with steel, and does so with less of the Piezo characteristic noise at higher (venue) volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted February 9, 2016 Members Share Posted February 9, 2016 Beads. Great idea. Howard' date=' when you say "one on top of the other" you mean stacked, right? . . . [/quote'] Right. . . . This being the 1st set of nylon strings going onto this guitar' date=' in place of steel strings, I'll probably have to enlarge the nut slots. No big deal. I have all the small jeweler files. I might just cut a new nut with spacing a smidge wider than the stock nut.. . [/quote'] Yes - you will need to widen the 1st, 2nd and 3rd nut slots. The bass strings will fit fine. I used a new nut on mine - managed to get another couple of mm on the string spacing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted February 10, 2016 Members Share Posted February 10, 2016 Wish they were more widely available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted February 10, 2016 Members Share Posted February 10, 2016 Wish they were more widely available. Look: https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl...rings&tbm=shop PS. ^ ^ ^ & They are not all classical strings - as usual other types of string creep in - double check if you decide to order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Idunno Posted February 14, 2016 Author Members Share Posted February 14, 2016 Strings arrived today. I cut the slots and strung it up. So far, so good. When the strings settle into keeping tune I'll take it through its paces plugged. I can say this with certainty, it sounds much better unplugged with nylon strings than it does with steel plugged or unplugged. The strings are the Martin M160 Classical high tension .028/.043 set, if you're curious. If I get the chance this week I'll get a recording up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Grant Harding Posted February 14, 2016 Members Share Posted February 14, 2016 I use knots (like garthman suggests) on my old classical rather than a traditional tie (due to the age and marginal break angle) and they work well. That lets me use my preferred Savarez or Hannabach strings since they aren't available with balls. I find I have to do a twist-lock on the tuning machines with the trebles if I want them to retain pitch (eventually). Google that and try it if they keep slipping after a week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted February 14, 2016 Members Share Posted February 14, 2016 Strings arrived today. I cut the slots and strung it up. So far' date=' so good. When the strings settle into keeping tune I'll take it through its paces plugged. I can say this with certainty, it sounds much better unplugged with nylon strings than it does with steel plugged or unplugged. The strings are the Martin M160 Classical high tension .028/.043 set, if you're curious. If I get the chance this week I'll get a recording up.[/quote'] I'm glad you are liking it so far, Joe. I had the same experience 10 years ago when I rigged out the old dred with nylon strings. In those far off days the dred had a cheap passive piezo UST - just volume and tone controls - I've since fitted an active onboard EQ system for the times I plug it in.. And yes, please let's hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Idunno Posted February 14, 2016 Author Members Share Posted February 14, 2016 Okay, neck relief has flattened out so I'll need to make a correction. One thing I've noticed with this system is the trebles are weak. That's to say that I need to diminish the mids and lows significantly to hear a balance in the highs and that's strictly on the hi-E string. They were the same with steel strings so there's a problem afoot I'll have to resolve. It's a Fishman Classic 4 system using a single UST source. It's an older system using a co-polymer UST (whatever that is) that may not be ideally seated in the saddle slot. If the clay trick doesn't resolve it perhaps some plastique will (kidding). Anyway, neck relief is the order of the day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted February 15, 2016 Members Share Posted February 15, 2016 Okay' date=' neck relief has flattened out so I'll need to make a correction. . . . [/quote'] Yes - I should have mentioned that you would probably have to slacken off the truss rod . . . . One thing I've noticed with this system is the trebles are weak. That's to say that I need to diminish the mids and lows significantly to hear a balance in the highs and that's strictly on the hi-E string. They were the same with steel strings so there's a problem afoot I'll have to resolve. It's a Fishman Classic 4 system using a single UST source. It's an older system using a co-polymer UST (whatever that is) that may not be ideally seated in the saddle slot. If the clay trick doesn't resolve it perhaps some plastique will (kidding). Anyway' date=' neck relief is the order of the day.[/quote'] I think that Fishman system uses a co-axial type UST. Generally they produce a more faithful acoustic sound than the "bar" type. But they are flexible so it can be more difficult to get a good contact. The clay shim trick has always worked for me. [ATTACH=CONFIG]n31694257[/ATTACH] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Idunno Posted February 16, 2016 Author Members Share Posted February 16, 2016 I got the TR loose this evening but had to put an amazing amount of torque on the wrench. It was seized and getting it to break free had me wondering about possible damage. After breaking it free it offered normal resistance. I moved it a little over 1/4 turn. I know the nylon strings don't have the tension of steel so I'll wait a couple days to see where it settles. What are these TRs made of? Is it possible some corrosion developed in the threads and seized it? I used a 5mm Apex Hex bit in a 1/4" holder fitted to a u-joint on the end of a 6" extension on a 1/4" ratchet, meaning, it took that kind of rig to develop the power to break the TR free. I spread the strings with a rolled/doubled up paper towel to allow clearance for the assembled tool. The access hole for the 5mm bit is large enough in diameter to pass the 1/4" bit holder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted February 17, 2016 Members Share Posted February 17, 2016 I got the TR loose this evening but had to put an amazing amount of torque on the wrench. It was seized and getting it to break free had me wondering about possible damage. After breaking it free it offered normal resistance. I moved it a little over 1/4 turn. I know the nylon strings don't have the tension of steel so I'll wait a couple days to see where it settles. What are these TRs made of? Is it possible some corrosion developed in the threads and seized it? I used a 5mm Apex Hex bit in a 1/4" holder fitted to a u-joint on the end of a 6" extension on a 1/4" ratchet, meaning, it took that kind of rig to develop the power to break the TR free. I spread the strings with a rolled/doubled up paper towel to allow clearance for the assembled tool. The access hole for the 5mm bit is large enough in diameter to pass the 1/4" bit holder. Joe. Phew!!! I've never had that sort of trouble. I suppose some sort of corrosion must be to blame - AFAIK the rods are just steel so if that is the case corrosion is certainly the likely culprit. Anyway, things should be fine now. IIRC 1/4 to 1/2 turn is about right to compensate for the lower tension of the nylon strings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Idunno Posted February 17, 2016 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2016 Howard - This guitar was bought used. I looked it over when I bought it for signs of abuse but could not see any. The saddle is obviously Martin's as-produced product with ample height. This now makes me think the previous owner attempted to reduce the action by wrenching the TR as far as it would go rather than taking it off the saddle. When the relief is right I'll address the action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Etienne Rambert Posted February 17, 2016 Members Share Posted February 17, 2016 I usually use Savarez.I didn't see them on that page. But I could probably find at least some of those Martins and D'Addarios over here. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Freeman Keller Posted February 17, 2016 Members Share Posted February 17, 2016 Just a couple of random thoughts. First, I think you said it was one of the Martin HPL models - depending on the generation it can either have a single acting or double acting rod (if the adjuster is just inside the sound hole it is the older single acting rod, if you have to reach way up inside it is the newer rod. Single acting rods were an aluminum channel with a steel rod inside. There might be some galling or corrosion - be sure to loosen the rod first. Double acting rods are steel on steel and are usually pretty smooth acting. Be very careful with your tools in the sound hole - I know a guy who was using one of those folding type of allen wrench sets in his D28 - he slipped and left a big gouge in the side of the sound hole. On older headstock style truss rods I usually squirt a tiny drop of WD40 to break the threads loose - not really an option in the sound hole. Anyway, remember that typically nylon strung guitars don't have truss rods but they do have some relief - my StewMac reference suggests 0.002 which is the same as for a steel string. Since steel strings are around 165-180 pounds of tension and nylon 100 or a little more you will probably have to slacken the t/r slightly. Also, most people set up nylon strings higher at both ends than steel - again, my StewMac chart suggests a the nut 0.024 (0.013) high E and 0.030 (0.023) low (the numbers in parenthesis are steel). At the 12th fret they suggest 0.125 (0.070) high E and 0.156 (0.090) low. You usually see nylon stepup numbers in millimeters - I'm just trying to show difference. No advice on the UST - I've installed a couple in nylon string guitars but most folks go for the little stick on bridgeplate transducers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Idunno Posted February 18, 2016 Author Members Share Posted February 18, 2016 Thanks, Freeman. The relief is beginning to show since I backed the TR off (CCW). It dropped a full step. I'm sure some string stretching is still going on but it was getting close to stable when I made the TR adjustment. I'll wait it out for a few days to give it time to settle. Immediately inside the sound hole is a cross brace with a hole and behind it lies the neck block with a slight separation gap between them. The diameter of the TR access hole allows a bit holder to pass through. Guessing, the 5mm bit seats into the rod after traveling through that brace about an inch, or just over. Your numbers for a nylon string height are pretty much where I am right now since the relief changed. I haven't pursued the p'up yet. I'll do that once the action is right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Idunno Posted February 19, 2016 Author Members Share Posted February 19, 2016 Well, I think I just made a cross-over outa this little bastidized Martin HPL. The action still needs to come up a touch at the trebles but it's otherwise a very satisfactory experiment. The tone unplugged isn't great but it's a lot better than when it wore steel strings. Messing around with the EQ and reverb on the amp gives me some very nice color and tone, which was something I just could not eek out of it with steel strings. I wonder if I should contact Martin and advise them they have a decent cross-over in their closet of discontinued guitars. Nah. They still owe me for that botched 73 D35...die maggots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted February 19, 2016 Members Share Posted February 19, 2016 Well' date=' I think I just made a cross-over outa this little bastidized Martin HPL. The action still needs to come up a touch at the trebles but it's otherwise a very satisfactory experiment. The tone unplugged isn't great but it's a lot better than when it wore steel strings. Messing around with the EQ and reverb on the amp gives me some very nice color and tone, which was something I just could not eek out of it with steel strings. . . . . [/quote'] Joe. Good stuff - I'm glad you like it. Your experiences pretty much mirror mine when I "garthmanized" my old dred years ago. I've just done it again on an old Ovation Applause AE32 (c.1979 MIK) which I recently found in a used instrument store. The Ovation "string-through" bridge allows you to tie on loop-end strings in the same way as a classical - a useful bonus. I'll try it out on the next VOM. A pic of the AE32 Mine is a sunburst: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Idunno Posted February 22, 2016 Author Members Share Posted February 22, 2016 Ha! Bored, Howard? Looks like a fun mod. Does the Ovation have a system installed? I had a Glen Campbell model 6-string in 72 without onboards. It had that plastic glued-on rosette trim ring. It was just like the one in the link below. I paid 360.00 US out the door. Mine had a deep bowl as I recall. https://reverb.com/item/546977-ovation-1127-4-glen-campbell-1970-s The Martin is coming along. I'm waiting for full stabilization of the neck. The hi-E and B strings are contacting frets when driven for accentuation. I think a bit of saddle height may be needed on that side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted February 23, 2016 Members Share Posted February 23, 2016 Ha! Bored' date=' Howard? . . . . [/quote'] Nah. Just routine "street corner loitering" prevention stuff. . . . Looks like a fun mod. Does the Ovation have a system installed? I had a Glen Campbell model 6-string in 72 without onboards. It had that plastic glued-on rosette trim ring. It was just like the one in the link below. I paid 360.00 US out the door. Mine had a deep bowl as I recall. https://reverb.com/item/546977-ovation-1127-4-glen-campbell-1970-s The Martin is coming along. I'm waiting for full stabilization of the neck. The hi-E and B strings are contacting frets when driven for accentuation. I think a bit of saddle height may be needed on that side. Yes. It has a simple passive UST with rotary volume and tone controls. Nothing special but enough to get a good and quite faithful signal to an amp or pedal. Mine is one of the early Applause models with the original headstock, traditional rosette and no mention of the "Ovation" name. Later models used the well-known Ovation headstock and the name was mentioned too. Mine is a deep bowl too - I wouldn't want one of the thin bowls. More pics: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Idunno Posted February 24, 2016 Author Members Share Posted February 24, 2016 Nice tying. That bridge looks like it isn't factory standard. It looks ancient; from some old vintage instrument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members garthman Posted February 24, 2016 Members Share Posted February 24, 2016 Nice tying. That bridge looks like it isn't factory standard. It looks ancient; from some old vintage instrument. LOL. Well, the serial number dates it to 1979 which is 37 years ago so I suppose it's pretty old. Still using whittling knives back then I would imagine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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