Bridge for a custom 18 string (in 6 courses) baritone guitar?

[JEV]

Does anyone have any information or knowledge to share on how to create or mod a bridge for a baritone guitar with 18 strings set in six courses?

 

Basically a 12 string baritone with an additional set of six strings added. Any information or leads to get information on this will be greatly appreciated.

[Freeman Keller]

I assume that since you are posting this in the Electric forum you are building an electric guitar, but I have to ask. Electric or acoustic? Floating or non floating bridge? Not multi scale I assume? What string gauges will you use and which courses are unisons, which are octaves? How finiky are you going to be about intonation? What is your overall string spacing (1st to 18th) and what spacing do you want for the courses?

 

I've built a long scale acoustic 12 string (not a bari, its usually tuned to B or C) and I've played several others, including 8 string bari's. I've looked at several options for electrics but I've never really pursued them. I've also looked at several guitars of the harp and multi string configuration - some of these haver baritone scales (altho not the courses).

[Freeman Keller]

[1001gear]

... and besides, that's a harp.

[JEV]

I assume that since you are posting this in the Electric forum you are building an electric guitar, but I have to ask. Electric or acoustic? Floating or non floating bridge? Not multi scale I assume? What string gauges will you use and which courses are unisons, which are octaves? How finiky are you going to be about intonation? What is your overall string spacing (1st to 18th) and what spacing do you want for the courses?

 

I've built a long scale acoustic 12 string (not a bari, its usually tuned to B or C) and I've played several others, including 8 string bari's. I've looked at several options for electrics but I've never really pursued them. I've also looked at several guitars of the harp and multi string configuration - some of these haver baritone scales (altho not the courses).

 

Hi, thanks for responding. Yes, it's a custom electric guitar that I am having built by a local Luthier/guitar builder. It's not going to be a floating bridge just a standard fixed bridge. I was going to have fanned frets but the guitar builder doesn't do fanned frets. So it's going to be a straight forward 30 scale C-VI type of guitar. Basically based off of the Schecter C-VI Baritone Hellraiser that I have. I'm thinking of having 2 carbon fiber trust rods in it like on my Schecter 12 string Stargazer because I'm doing the same running on that and it stays in tune. The spacing will be a standard 6 string like it is on my Schecter 12 string Stargazer. So overall this guitar is going to be a combination of my Schecter C-VI 30 scale baritone and Schecter 12 string Stargazer. The tuning and gauges or as follows from top set to bottom set.

Top Set - One Octave Below E Standard (20-30-42-54-74-90)

Middle Set - B Standard (12-16-24-32-44-56)

Bottom Set – F# Standard (8-11-14-22-30-38)

 

The guitar builder feels a standard tunomatic bridge will work just fine. It's just figuring out the saddles.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Well I'm going to be very honest here - I don't understand what exactly you are having built, but you (and your luthier) better get some of these fundimental things worked out before you go much farther. String gauges and tunings are basic to your design, that will determine neck width at both ends. I've seen 12 string ToM bridges but never a 18 string - it will be wider than the normal ABR (spacing of 2-1/16 up to 2-3/16 for the 12 string - you are going to add at least 500 thousands more spacing). String spacing will of course determine nut width and pickups.

 

Obviously you have calculated the tension from those sets and have designed the neck accordingly. Fanned frets makes lots of sense on a baritone, but I think it would be a nightmare on a 12 string and even worse with 18. Your tunings don't make sense - normally a bari is tuned a fourth or fifth below a standard guitar (B to B or A to A)

 

Anyway, I'm not trying to tear this thing apart since I really can't envision it, I just hope that you have thought thru all of the little details before touching chisel to wood. And when you do build it, I want to see it.

[mrbrown49]

I dont get your tuning. You say its a combination of a 12 string and a 6 string. Which courses, as you say, are meant to be played in unison?

[mrbrown49]

One more thought. If you cant effectively explain it to us, are you sure you and your builder are on the same page?

 

[JEV]

It's basically just an expansion of a 12 string tuned in 5ths.

 

12 String Tuned in 5ths

I had the idea for tuning a 12 string in 5ths back in 2000 but didn't put it to the test until Schecter came out with their 12 string Stargazer model. I contacted Schecter and I got the string gauges for the tuning from one of the Schecter engineers which is why the string tension is balanced for the tunings I am using. He pointed out that with the 2 carbon fiber trust rods in the Schecter 12 string Stargazer that is would be able to handle and hold tuning at even thicker gauges if I wanted to go that route. In short what I did with my Schecter 12 string Stargazer is instead of going with E standard on the top set and and octave higher on the bottom set I tuned them in 5ths. So that each string position is a power chord played in union with the root being the top set and the bottom set being the 5th from the root as opposed to the top set being the root and the bottom set being an octave higher. I did A/B track comparisons before attempting this of course to see if I liked the results and I did. Power chord and Tri chord formations sound melodic and epic with the added suspended 9ths notes. However more complex chord formations like E Major 7th Suspended 4th can sound a bit enigmatic in this style of tuning. The builder I am having build this guitar is the one that set up my 12 Stargazer. So he is aware of what I'm doing. Here is an example of a 12 string tuned in 5ths if anyone is interested in what the might sound like.

 

 

Custom 18 String Baritone Tuned in 5ths

So for my custom guitar I decided to try out doing an A/B comparison track to see what adding a low root E (one octave below standard tuning) over the B standard and F# standard tuning of my 12 string Stargazer considering B is the 5th of E. So I played one track with my 12 string Stargazer that is tuned to B standard on the top set of strings and F# standard on the bottom set then played the same chord progressions and scales on my Schecter C-VI baritone Hellraiser over the 12 string Stargazer track and liked how it sounded. It simply added to the melodic and epic overtones of the chords and scales and expanded on the range of the crescendo effect of single, double,and triple string playing.

 

I hope this explains it better.

[Grant Harding]

So it's an acoustic?

[JEV]

No, this is for electric guitar. Just the example on the video is acoustic.

[Grant Harding]

I'm confused, which probably means metal or brutalz. I've got no relevant help if that's the case. Sounds like a fun project though.

[JEV]

Thanks I appreciate the honesty and yes it is indeed for metal

[Freeman Keller]

OK, I sort of understand what you are trying to do and I won't argue whether it makes sense or not. As a builder (and 12 string player) all I can see are the problems.

 

One very real problem for all the builders of long and very long scale instruments is finding strings the right gauge that are long enough. I attended a D'Addario workshop a few years ago where one of their engineers cautioned about this - he said that they could make any gauge in any length but it would be a custom order with minimum quantity. So, first, make sure you can get every string that you need and make sure its long enough to reach from the anchor (whatever that will be) to the tuner.

 

Next, do the calcs for the tension. Make sure it is balanced from string to string and course to course. Most people assume that a 12 string is double the tension of a sixer, most of the time its more like 150%. Use the Universal String Tension calculator or D'Addario's site and make sure.

 

Instead of the CF reinforcements I would seriously consider two double acting rods like Guild uses - I think you are going to need a lot of help adjusting the relief. I would also seriously consider what kind of neck joint you are going to use - this might be a place for a neck thru.

 

The headstock is going to be darn heavy, even with mini tuners (which might be a bad idea for a bari). Its going to be darn long. One minor little got-cha's that I run into every time I build a odd sized instrument is that I have to buy a custom case (I use Cedar Creek, a custom runs about $350 and takes several months).

 

I honestly think you are going to end up with custom hardware - the string spacing at the nut is probably going to be 2-1/8 or more, at the bridge maybe 2-1/2 or wider. The means the tailpiece or stop bar, pickups, as well as the bridge are going to be custom made - I can't see any way a ToM will work. I also think this is going to be a b*tch to intonate - 12 strings are hard enough, as are bari's. Your builder should find one of the formulas that calculates compensation (there was a recent article in American Lutherie) and confirm that the saddles will be in close to the correct location before you start and that you have enough travel. Obviously you will actually intonate it by sound but at least know that you are starting in the right place. Once again, I can't see a ToM even getting close.

 

I'm still struggling with the tuning of your courses. As I understand it the first and 6th courses will include an E, B and F#. That is some sort of suspended E chord. I am not a great music theory player, but I understand enough how to take a major triad and add the 6th or 7th or flatted 7th, but I don't see how you do any of that in this "tuning". I listened to your 12 string vid - it is interesting but I would grow tired of it pretty fast.

 

Only you can tell if your tuning will work for the music you want to play. Considering that you'll probably put a couple of grand into your custom, will you really play it enough (I think the same thing when I see all the harp guitars and sympathetic strings and stuff people come up with - interesting but is it really worth the effort).

 

Anyway, I'll be the naysayer - maybe some of my comments will head off a problem. If you are comfortable with your solutions then please keep us updated as you build it and I'm really looking forward to seeing and hearing it when its done.

[JEV]

Thank you very much for the honest feedback. With the string gauges I'm just going off of what the engineer at Schecter suggested which are Ernie Ball sets and the gauges I listed. They work great for my 12 string Stargazer in B standard top and F# standard bottom and the guitar always stays in tuned. I use it for my main metal band and project. The video isn't mine. Just one that I found on YouTube that shows how 12 strings tuned to 5ths can work. However as you pointed out with me going with the extra scale length I will have to check to see if those sets will be able to reach past the nut and wrap around the tuners like the E standard (one octave below) set of strings (20-30-42-54-74-90). I will definitely take a look at the D'Addario calculator and have the guitar builder look over everything you mentioned. He is making a custom case for it as well and didn't seem phased by anything other than figuring out the bridge and saddle situation. Which as you pointed out will probably have to be custom made as well considering an 18 string bridge in 6 courses doesn't exist yet that we know of. Updates may be very slow though as this project is not going to be rushed and will take time to get completed,Ha. However I will keep this thread updated for anyone who are interested in seeing the final results

[Freeman Keller]

Your Stargazer is 25-1/2 scale. By the time you at 5 inches of scale length plus several inches of headstock I doubt that Ernie Ball string will be long enough. Bass and baritone strings are intentionally made longer, most guitar strings aren't - thats why the ones for your Hellraiser work.

 

And I'm really worried about the string tension and scale length. Do the math before you do anything else. If your luthier knows his business he will already be on to this.

 

Remember that ToM bridges are 12 inch, that locks you into that f/b radius. If you play metal you'll want the action down on the deck - that makes string tension even more important if you don't want a little buzz bomb.

 

If that stuff works out then the bridge becomes minor.

 

ps - one of the reasons I posted that picture of the acoustic 18 string bridge is that there are so many things wrong with it. Don't duplicate it with yours.

[mrbrown49]

Wow, this sounds like an ambitious project. I might take something like this gotoh 12string bridge and make a custom baseplate for it to span all your strings.

 

https://reverb.com/item/2972194-bridge-gotoh-12-string-for-electric-guitar-color-chrome?gclid=CjwKCAiAxarQBRAmEiwA6YcGKJ5sf09LnEug6qJ6bT4cS07sg3KDB1gjbpMA2ttUotORvnBic0mYDRoCtS0QAvD_BwE&pla=1

 

[Freeman Keller]

String spacing within the course will be all wrong. IMHO he needs to start from scratch

[JEV]

Thanks for the suggestion MrBrown49 and it really is! I'll run it by the guitar builder but I think Freeman Keller might be right about needing to start from scratch. Any other ideas keep them coming. I'm an open book here,Ha.

[mrbrown49]

From scratch? Not necessarily. If you look close one string of each pair is on a roller. The other is on a tom like saddle with a notch. There is potential to adjust the notch position to adjust the spacing of the pair. The new base plate will determine the spacing btw the pairs.

 

FWIW, its easier to say something cant be done than to come up with a solution.

[Freeman Keller]

Most of the time with a guitar with "courses" multiple strings played together - mandolin, 12 string, etc - the spacing between the strings within the course is 0.100 or maybe less. A lot depends on the diameter of the string and JEV has chosen some pretty fat strings. If you make the strings within the course closer then you can make the courses themselves closer so you can move easily between them, But you still need enough space between course so you can pick each one cleanly. This also translates to the nut end - you need all the strings in the course close enough together than you can fret them all with one finger tip (or your barred index finger) but if you make them too close they will rattle against each other.

 

JEV complicates this with his choices of strings and tunings - some of the strings are pretty phat while some of them will be fairly slack in the tunings he has chosen. The phat strings may want a little more space than 0.100 which makes things worse.

 

Getting all of this to fit the Gotoh saddles may or may not be possible - I would want to sit down with one and a pair of caliper and see. And of course one of the cool parts with that bridge is that you can compensate each string individually (12 strings are notoriously hard to intonate, this will be worse) but once you've added the second string you can't compensate them.

 

There are some pretty cool calculators that predict how much compensation a string is going to require for a given tuning, I've suggested that JEV run that for every string and see just where that break point is going to be - that will give him some idea where the saddles need be and if there is anything out there that can be made to work.

 

Believe me, I've looked at the options that I'm aware of too and just don't see anything.

[JEV]

I appreciate the feedback by everyone and I understand my ideas are out there. It was a while before I figured out how to get the right string gauges and find a Luthier who was willing to string up my 12 string Stargazer to 5ths in low B tuning but with the help of Schecter's guitar tech it got figured out and it's my main guitar for my metal band and it works great for what we wanted it to sound like. So I'm sure with enough tech heads out there this can be figured out too. Or it will be like my 12 string Stargazer only a baritone tuned to E below standard,Ha.

[JEV]

Ok, so I did some research and it looks like Kalium Strings have created a 24 bass that works in 3 octaves. I'm trying to figure out what they did to create the bridge that hold 24 strings in 8 courses.

 

[Freeman Keller]

Good luck. Looking forward to seeing it when its done. I hope your luthier truely knows what he/she is getting into.

[JEV]

[uSER=37202]Freeman Keller[/uSER] Thanks. Kalium Strings got back to me and referred me to the Luthier in Spain that did the bridge for their 24 string Bass and two other companies that can help. So still digging and researching but starting to get somewhere to a conclusion on this bridge I think. Or hope so,Ha.