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A question of free will

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  • there are certain things that are really predetermined/not subject to free will, while other things are entirely up to you. I guess the key is to understand what can and cannot be changed and do your best to work with the deck of cards you were dealt.
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    • once again, addiction was just an example that has derailed the thread.



      IF you were physically addicted to smoking, and you found yourself doing it (smashed at a party, maybe?) i suspect that you would have a hard time stopping again. that's the nature of addiction.



      but none of this has any bearing on the conversation.
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      • Quote Originally Posted by knucklefux
        View Post

        once again, addiction was just an example that has derailed the thread.



        IF you were physically addicted to smoking, and you found yourself doing it (smashed at a party, maybe?) i suspect that you would have a hard time stopping again. that's the nature of addiction.



        but none of this has any bearing on the conversation.




        I have found myself there and after one I didn't want anymore.









        Anyway back on point...



        So if everything is predetermined this knowledge was meant to be obtained as well as anything that can be done with said knowledge. It doesn't change anything.



        If the theory is not correct, it's meaningless.



        What benefit do we have by knowing this?

        Comment








        • Quote Originally Posted by knucklefux
          View Post

          once again, addiction was just an example that has derailed the thread.



          IF you were physically addicted to smoking, and you found yourself doing it (smashed at a party, maybe?) i suspect that you would have a hard time stopping again. that's the nature of addiction.



          but none of this has any bearing on the conversation.




          I have found myself there and after one I didn't want anymore.









          Anyway back on point...



          So if everything is predetermined this knowledge was meant to be obtained as well as anything that can be done with said knowledge. It doesn't change anything.



          If the theory is not correct, it's meaningless.



          What benefit do we have by knowing this?

          Comment


          • I don't believe in free will.





            Overdriven, such determinism doesn't exist in physics.

            Comment








            • Quote Originally Posted by ~Abstract~
              View Post

              Have you ever doubted anything?



              Then you thought.



              Then there is free will.









              imo.




              wat

              Comment








              • Quote Originally Posted by BustaPheara
                View Post

                I've been in the "free will is an illusion" camp for a while. Classical physics does indeed indicate that all events are caused in a deterministic manner. Free will would require that our brains, which are physical objects, somehow be able to step outside of this deterministic system, but there's no justification for that notion. Quantum physics, if it does change any of this, simply tells us that events at the sub-atomic level are probablistic. I don't see how replacing A causes B with A causes B through Z with determinable probablilities really makes free will any more tenable.




                It doesn't. Free-will-illusion doesn't depend at all on determinism.

                Comment








                • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
                  View Post

                  So if everything is predetermined this knowledge was meant to be obtained as well as anything that can be done with said knowledge. It doesn't change anything.



                  If the theory is not correct, it's meaningless.



                  What benefit do we have by knowing this?




                  You think the validity of free-will is not important to people?

                  Comment








                  • Quote Originally Posted by Rear Naked
                    View Post

                    You think the validity of free-will is not important to people?




                    It won't change anything so no. I don't think it will benefit the masses. I think arguing destiny is predetermined will remove personal responsibility from the conscience of too many.

                    Comment








                    • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
                      View Post

                      So if we don't have free will and this is all predetermined, having this knowledge won't change anything.



                      If not, this is pointless banter on a message board.



                      It's not a power to harness either way.




                      Don't get stuck on the determinism part. That is secondary to whether there is free-will or not.

                      Comment








                      • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
                        View Post

                        It won't change anything so no. I don't think it will benefit the masses. I think arguing destiny is predetermined will remove personal responsibility from the conscience of too many.




                        You just said it won't change anything, and then in the next sentence you say how it will change people's conscience.

                        Comment








                        • Quote Originally Posted by BustaPheara
                          View Post

                          I've been in the "free will is an illusion" camp for a while. Classical physics does indeed indicate that all events are caused in a deterministic manner. Free will would require that our brains, which are physical objects, somehow be able to step outside of this deterministic system, but there's no justification for that notion. Quantum physics, if it does change any of this, simply tells us that events at the sub-atomic level are probablistic. I don't see how replacing A causes B with A causes B through Z with determinable probablilities really makes free will any more tenable.




                          That sums up how I feel as well.



                          Free Will is very important for some religions, like Christianity, no? Like the idea that you use your free will to sin or not to sin.

                          Comment








                          • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
                            View Post

                            It won't change anything so no. I don't think it will benefit the masses. I think arguing destiny is predetermined will remove personal responsibility from the conscience of too many.




                            Some religions stress fatalism quite a bit. I'm sure this affects peoples' behaviour.

                            Comment








                            • Quote Originally Posted by Rear Naked
                              View Post

                              Don't get stuck on the determinism part. That is secondary to whether there is free-will or not.




                              I believe there is but I'm so far from an expert in this field I just wanted to add my uninformed opinion.





                              So essentially the argument boils down to how random things truly are at their core? Similar to how using a random formula in Excel still yields a predetermined pattern for cell selection? No matter how many levels the programmers can introduce there is still no way to make a black and white computer think illogically and truly select at random?

                              Comment








                              • Quote Originally Posted by Ron Burgandy
                                View Post

                                I believe there is but I'm so far from an expert in this field I just wanted to add my uninformed opinion.





                                So essentially the argument boils down to how random things truly are at their core? Similar to how using a random formula in Excel still yields a predetermined pattern for cell selection? No matter how many levels the programmers can introduce there is still no way to make a black and white computer think illogically and truly select at random?




                                The OP used determinism to argue against free-will, but was incorrect in using physics to imply determinism. However, we could possibly have no free-will even in a non-determined universe.



                                The argument against free will does not need to take determinism or indeterminism into account. IMO the interesting idea is free-will vs non-free-will. Determinism should be discussed after you agree there is no free-will...but 20th century physics discredits determinism from the start.



                                To be honest, i dont see where you're coming from with the randomness example.

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