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  • #91
    Thank you.









    Quote Originally Posted by knucklefux
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    shut the **************** up donnie, you're out of your element.



    despite what that douche from passages at malibu tells you an addict can never NOT be an addict. period.



    an addict CAN stop using, but s/he will always be an addict.




    Life is ours. We live it our way.







    Originally Posted by Rada


    ... I mean, I wouldn't mind getting on all fours every once in a while if it meant my tuition and rent was taken care of

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    • #92






      Quote Originally Posted by Nick H
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      An addiction is a predisposition to exhibit a certain behavior, but it isn't forced. One can still overcome it using free will.




      You're thinking about this the wrong way. Your pull to an addictive substance is due to your neuron's acclimation to higher amounts of dopamine. Whether or not you can or will choose to resist that pull depends upon chemical reactions in your brain. People who are hopelessly addicted are literally powerless because the chemical addiction in the brain is stronger than the chemical reaction and signaling that gives us better sense.



      In order to get what I'm saying, you have to look at the brain completely as a chemical and electrical reaction, which it IS according to science.



      Now, I admit that the one way I could be incorrect is via quantum physics, which some here have mentioned. Quantum physics operates on PROBABILITY. If all possibilities exist, and only become our reality through observation (ie the dual slit experiment), then it could blow a hole in my original post. These are things we're still trying to figure out.
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      • #93






        Quote Originally Posted by Hegmatronicon
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        No. A CHEMICAL addiciton is just that. Chemical.

        It's not a choice to be addicted.

        Yes - it can be overcome by making the choice to overcome it. But it's not like you just up and decide to beat it and thats that.

        It's VERY tough.

        PS - if it's bad enough - choosinto beat it by stopping whatever it is you are taking - can kill you.

        Is that free will?




        you're further stating that chemicals>choice.



        your brain runs on chemicals.



        i can't make it any more plain.
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        • #94






          Quote Originally Posted by Nick H
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          lulz

          read your post several times, still cant make sense of it.




          obivously, you're not a golfer.
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          • #95






            Quote Originally Posted by Nick H
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            An addiction is a predisposition to exhibit a certain behavior, but it isn't forced. One can still overcome it using free will.



            For example, when we are hungry, our mind forces us to crave food, so in a sense, we are addicted to eating. However many people can overcome it in the form of fasting.

            In other words, if you cant oivercome an addiction, its not because you lack free will, its just that your free will isnt strong enough.




            If you had absolute free will there would be no such thing as predisposition...
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            Originally Posted by nedezero


            You realize under Sharia law, she'll be required to get a circumcision.

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            • #96






              Quote Originally Posted by OverDriven
              View Post

              You're thinking about this the wrong way. Your pull to an addictive substance is due to your neuron's acclimation to higher amounts of dopamine. Whether or not you can or will choose to resist that pull depends upon chemical reactions in your brain. People who are hopelessly addicted are literally powerless because the chemical addiction in the brain is stronger than the chemical reaction and signaling that gives us better sense.



              In order to get what I'm saying, you have to look at the brain completely as a chemical and electrical reaction, which it IS according to science.



              Now, I admit that the one way I could be incorrect is via quantum physics, which some here have mentioned. Quantum physics operates on PROBABILITY. If all possibilities exist, and only become our reality through observation (ie the dual slit experiment), then it could blow a hole in my original post. These are things we're still trying to figure out.




              Ah that does make sense, Ill have to explain myself more.

              If the chemical addiction is stronger than the chemical reaction to break the addiction, than one lacks the motivation to break the addiction (given that it may be impossible to start with, it boils down to the same concept)

              In other words, addicts have free will, just not enough free will to act on free will. Bummer.
              If you think this forum sucks visit here:http://www.guitarampboard.com/index.php started by user guitarbilly74

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              • #97






                Quote Originally Posted by TurboRotary13b
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                If you had absolute free will there would be no such thing as predisposition...




                Exactly, I don't believe in absolute free will.
                If you think this forum sucks visit here:http://www.guitarampboard.com/index.php started by user guitarbilly74

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                • #98
                  Im not arguing one way or the other.

                  I'm mainly responding to this:








                  a fine example is someone who smokes, but can't quit no matter how badly they want to or how much they hate it (these people do exist, i suspect there are some among us)...or any other addict, really. they continue a behavior in spite of the negative consequences. how could a being with free will choose to do something that can cause them so much discomfort or even death? simple, remove the free will and the question needs not be asked.



                  By saying "people dont CHOOSE to be addicted to something by free will. It's not something they have control over because it's not a choice. Free will existing or not is beside the point. if it DOES exist - it would allow us to make any CHOICE we wanted to - addiction isnt a choice - therefore i dont believe free will applies.

                  Thats all i am trying (not doing a good job of articulating tho) to say.









                  Quote Originally Posted by knucklefux
                  View Post

                  you're further stating that chemicals>choice.



                  your brain runs on chemicals.



                  i can't make it any more plain.




                  Life is ours. We live it our way.







                  Originally Posted by Rada


                  ... I mean, I wouldn't mind getting on all fours every once in a while if it meant my tuition and rent was taken care of

                  Comment


                  • #99






                    Quote Originally Posted by Nick H
                    View Post

                    Exactly, I don't believe in absolute free will.




                    So you believe in free will with limitations?
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                    Originally Posted by nedezero


                    You realize under Sharia law, she'll be required to get a circumcision.

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                    • Quote Originally Posted by OverDriven
                      View Post

                      You're thinking about this the wrong way. Your pull to an addictive substance is due to your neuron's acclimation to higher amounts of dopamine. Whether or not you can or will choose to resist that pull depends upon chemical reactions in your brain. People who are hopelessly addicted are literally powerless because the chemical addiction in the brain is stronger than the chemical reaction and signaling that gives us better sense.



                      In order to get what I'm saying, you have to look at the brain completely as a chemical and electrical reaction, which it IS according to science.



                      Now, I admit that the one way I could be incorrect is via quantum physics, which some here have mentioned. Quantum physics operates on PROBABILITY. If all possibilities exist, and only become our reality through observation (ie the dual slit experiment), then it could blow a hole in my original post. These are things we're still trying to figure out.




                      i think quantum physics if over rated.















                      simmer down.



                      what i'm saying is that quantum physics really only applies to particles. once things start to have some mass, it breaks down. all the idiots you see trying to apply quantum mechanics to big stuff should spend some time trying to solve shrodinger's equation for 3+ particles.
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                      • The real question is...was it free will that compelled Nick H to spend all his money on Madisons, or was he predisposed to be a tool?
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                        • Quote Originally Posted by Hegmatronicon
                          View Post

                          Im not arguing one way or the other.

                          I'm mainly responding to this:





                          By saying "people dont CHOOSE to be addicted to something by free will. It's not something they have control over because it's not a choice. Free will existing or not is beside the point. if it DOES exist - it would allow us to make any CHOICE we wanted to - addiction isnt a choice - therefore i dont believe free will applies.

                          Thats all i am trying (not doing a good job of articulating tho) to say.




                          i see.



                          the issue with your argument is that it only serves to prove that there is no free will. that's what we're talking about here...using addiction as an example was just that, an example of something to which free will clearly does not apply...thereby negating free will.



                          i think we're saying the same things, just with a different end goal
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                          • Quote Originally Posted by TurboRotary13b
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                            So you believe in free will with limitations?




                            Free will within limitations.

                            There must in some form or another be a reason for ones actions, however one can control what reasons he/she takes into account (or how heavily they are weighed) when deciding to take action.
                            If you think this forum sucks visit here:http://www.guitarampboard.com/index.php started by user guitarbilly74

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                            • Maybe.



                              Altho i think free will can only apply to choices that we make.

                              Addiciton not being a choice - i dont really believe you can use it as an argument one way or the other.



                              But who am I to make that call! haha







                              Quote Originally Posted by knucklefux
                              View Post

                              i see.



                              the issue with your argument is that it only serves to prove that there is no free will. that's what we're talking about here...using addiction as an example was just that, an example of something to which free will clearly does not apply...thereby negating free will.



                              i think we're saying the same things, just with a different end goal




                              Life is ours. We live it our way.







                              Originally Posted by Rada


                              ... I mean, I wouldn't mind getting on all fours every once in a while if it meant my tuition and rent was taken care of

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                              • Quote Originally Posted by Hegmatronicon
                                View Post

                                Maybe.



                                Altho i think free will can only apply to choices that we make.

                                Addiciton not being a choice - i dont really believe you can use it as an argument one way or the other.



                                But who am I to make that call! haha




                                so, you're saying that going through the physical act of putting a foreign substance into your body doesn't involve choice?











                                there's choice all the way...first, you have to decide that you need to get some. then you have to decide to get some. then you decide that you need to use some, but you have to decide how much. if there's paraphernalia required, you have to decide to get that.



                                quite simply, your body doesn't move until your brain makes the choice to do so. if there were actually free will, there wouldn't be addiction because you could choose to NOT engage in any of the behaviors required to acquire and ingest a substance.



                                the alternative view is free will with limitations, but that isn't really free will...if you had free will, you could choose for it to exceed those limitations. and on and on.
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