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A question of free will

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  • #16
    If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.



    "A ****************ing elephant is a miracle. If people can't see a ****************ing miracle in a ****************ing elephant, then life must suck for them, because an elephant is a ****************ing miracle. So is a giraffe." - Voilent J, Scholar and Poet

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    • #17
      If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.



      "A ****************ing elephant is a miracle. If people can't see a ****************ing miracle in a ****************ing elephant, then life must suck for them, because an elephant is a ****************ing miracle. So is a giraffe." - Voilent J, Scholar and Poet

      Comment


      • #18
        Wasn't this that Guy Ritchie film, Revolver?
        -"Actual journalism? Isn't that when you don't commit crimes?"
        -"Hell no, it's when we commit really good crimes."

        Comment


        • #19
          Wasn't this that Guy Ritchie film, Revolver?
          -"Actual journalism? Isn't that when you don't commit crimes?"
          -"Hell no, it's when we commit really good crimes."

          Comment


          • #20






            Quote Originally Posted by OverDriven
            View Post

            This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.



            The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?



            Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.



            This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.



            What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.



            I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.



            That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.



            Thoughts.




            I think this is worthy of contemplation and depending on who's interpreting this, it can either be very empowering or very dangerous.



            An idle-minded human being would latch onto this logic and say something like "then it doesn't ****************ing matter what I do or what I decide because it was never my will to do so to begin with... **************** it." An impeccable person would think something more along the lines of "then I will give myself completely to the forces that guide my fate and become the conduit of my own destiny."
            Ibanez JS-1000 / Ibanez RG3-120535Q > Keeley Compressor > Xotic Custom Shop BB Preamp > Hartman FlangerLaney VH100R / Laney GH50L (MXR 10-band EQ > Line 6 DL-4)Geezer Sound Co. 2x12 (80w ceramic WGS BL-80)
            Also own: 1966 Fender Pro Reverb with Weber Californias, Dano CTO-1, Keeley SD-1, EHX D.EM

            Yes that's my girlfriend.

            Comment


            • #21






              Quote Originally Posted by OverDriven
              View Post

              This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.



              The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?



              Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.



              This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.



              What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.



              I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.



              That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.



              Thoughts.




              I think this is worthy of contemplation and depending on who's interpreting this, it can either be very empowering or very dangerous.



              An idle-minded human being would latch onto this logic and say something like "then it doesn't ****************ing matter what I do or what I decide because it was never my will to do so to begin with... **************** it." An impeccable person would think something more along the lines of "then I will give myself completely to the forces that guide my fate and become the conduit of my own destiny."
              Ibanez JS-1000 / Ibanez RG3-120535Q > Keeley Compressor > Xotic Custom Shop BB Preamp > Hartman FlangerLaney VH100R / Laney GH50L (MXR 10-band EQ > Line 6 DL-4)Geezer Sound Co. 2x12 (80w ceramic WGS BL-80)
              Also own: 1966 Fender Pro Reverb with Weber Californias, Dano CTO-1, Keeley SD-1, EHX D.EM

              Yes that's my girlfriend.

              Comment


              • #22
                no predictability at the level you suggest, but we are wired at birth for certain types of decisions and so forth. e.g. idents separated at birth end up with same clothes, jobs, hairstyle, spouses, etc.



                We have a predisposition for life outcomes & don't realize it.



                "George Costanza: It became very clear to me sitting out there today that every decision I've made in my entire life has been wrong. My life is the complete opposite of everything I want it to be. Every instinct I have, in every aspect of life, be it something to wear, something to eat - it's all been wrong. "

                Comment


                • #23
                  no predictability at the level you suggest, but we are wired at birth for certain types of decisions and so forth. e.g. idents separated at birth end up with same clothes, jobs, hairstyle, spouses, etc.



                  We have a predisposition for life outcomes & don't realize it.



                  "George Costanza: It became very clear to me sitting out there today that every decision I've made in my entire life has been wrong. My life is the complete opposite of everything I want it to be. Every instinct I have, in every aspect of life, be it something to wear, something to eat - it's all been wrong. "

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Our perception of choice may be only perception and preconceived from the moment the universe came into existence? An interesting question indeed. Doesn't it all come down to a matter of perception then? If so, then it doesn't matter if it was preconceived because we view our decisions as interactive whether they are or not.
                    SPAM:Pedals http://acapella.harmony-central.com/...ckson-amp-more

                    Good Deals: guitarbilly74, Rose Pickups, Plastic_Rocker, lespaul6, The Riffer, thirsty one, MRAAJR, Dogbone94, Scarlet Theory, BOOBIES, Rick Lee, & richey888

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Our perception of choice may be only perception and preconceived from the moment the universe came into existence? An interesting question indeed. Doesn't it all come down to a matter of perception then? If so, then it doesn't matter if it was preconceived because we view our decisions as interactive whether they are or not.
                      SPAM:Pedals http://acapella.harmony-central.com/...ckson-amp-more

                      Good Deals: guitarbilly74, Rose Pickups, Plastic_Rocker, lespaul6, The Riffer, thirsty one, MRAAJR, Dogbone94, Scarlet Theory, BOOBIES, Rick Lee, & richey888

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        you ever lick your finger after you've stuck it in your ear? tastes gross man.
                        Originally Posted by OverDriven


                        That is probably the single most ****************ed up thing I've ever seen posted on HCAF. Congrats.



                        Good deals with: jnepo1

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          you ever lick your finger after you've stuck it in your ear? tastes gross man.
                          Originally Posted by OverDriven


                          That is probably the single most ****************ed up thing I've ever seen posted on HCAF. Congrats.



                          Good deals with: jnepo1

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            i've said (abbreviated) versions of the same sort of thing around here and the resounding response was that there's something wrong with me (terms like idiot were used, i believe. considering the source, the irony did not escape me).



                            i think the concept of free will is appealing in much the same way that religion (and so, immortality) is...the alternative is pretty ****************ty. nobody wants to hear that they aren't *really* calling the shots
                            got a question about TITAN amps? ask me
                            here

                            my website

                            TITAN AMPS on myspace


                            My band:Last Comes Gunfire

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              i've said (abbreviated) versions of the same sort of thing around here and the resounding response was that there's something wrong with me (terms like idiot were used, i believe. considering the source, the irony did not escape me).



                              i think the concept of free will is appealing in much the same way that religion (and so, immortality) is...the alternative is pretty ****************ty. nobody wants to hear that they aren't *really* calling the shots
                              got a question about TITAN amps? ask me
                              here

                              my website

                              TITAN AMPS on myspace


                              My band:Last Comes Gunfire

                              Comment


                              • #30






                                Quote Originally Posted by OverDriven
                                View Post

                                This is something that I've been thinking about for a long time, and I'm curious what others think.



                                The human body and brain is very complex machine consisting of many different kinds of chemicals and molecules working in concert to create what we know as life. As a scientific person, I believe (and science agrees) that our choices and actions are a product of unimaginably complex chemical reactions in the brain. When weighing a decision, our brain is actually weighing things like reward and benefit. Which action will release more dopamine in the nucleus accumbens? What are our serotonin levels at the moment? What about our epinephrine levels? This and many more factors are processed by our brains, and we come to our decision based on them. You consciously don't even know it's going on behind the scenes. In our minds, we feel that we have just made a choice. Did we?



                                Our own chemical reaction started the moment we were born. Our brains started changing in response to the actions of others around us. Those actions (of others) were also governed by chemical reactions. The events happening in our environment here on earth are also governed by physics. These affected us. You can trace it back, and back, and back.



                                This chain reaction has been happening since the beginning of time. When the universe began (in the big bang, or what ever really formed the universe), all of the particles were set in motion. These particles eventually became light elements, and then stars. Then they collapsed, created heavier elements, and eventually exploded, spewing these heavier elements all over the universe. These elements became planets, soil, water, eventually animals and people through evolution. Because there are laws of physics that they have followed, their current positions (all the way down to the current position of every atom) was predetermined at the moment of the big bang.



                                What I'm getting at is a question of free will. We all seem to think that we have the power to make choices every moment of every day. We think we are changing our paths. Are we? If the laws of physics are to be believed, all of our actions have been predestined since the beginning of time.



                                I may not have explained that well, so a better way to think about it is this: All particles must follow SOME law of physics (not that we know all of them currently). Let's say we were to be able to know the exact position of every particle a millisecond after the big bang. If we fed these laws into a supercomputer with unimaginably vast power and also input the positions of the particles just after the big bang, we would be able to calculate the entire past and future of the entire universe, and it would be quite simple really.



                                That being the case, it could easily be argued that we do not have free will at all. We are all simply perceiving the results of this complex reaction and we only FEEL like we are actively changing it.



                                Thoughts.




                                I'm no physicist, but this is where I believe you are off. Yes, all physical objects up to and including the smallest nanoparticles must follow the same rules of physics, but I don't believe that they have preordained paths through the Universe.



                                Even though our human perception of time is flawed, I believe that all particles (or collections of particles like the human body, a car, etc.) are simply reacting to what forces are currently acting upon them at any given point in time. Those actions and reactions are governed within some basic framework.



                                Do I think we have free will? Yes, but only in a relative sense.
                                Originally Posted by Jesse G


                                EMG's are like McDonald's cheeseburgers of the pickup world

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