Software Audio Console (SAC)

[Tom Hicks]

I'm mixing my brother's local rock band, and helping them transition to a software based FOH. They are replacing the old M32 and effects rack

with computer-based mixing via a program called Software Audio Console, or SAC. The server and pres are rackmounted on stage.

I use a remote laptop and external monitor to control from FOH.

My brother plays keyboards for a north Texas prog rock band called First Rush. Here they are using the SAC rig at an outdoor festival gig last weekend.

I mixed three bands on the system from 1:00 pm till 9:00. Finished up with a blues band in the dark.

The system has a small footprint and the the sound quality is outstanding. After using the SAC rig since about last x-mas, I'm very impressed over the old analog mixer + effects rack setup. Any other folks using this to replace a console for live sound?

[Chickentown]

Hi - looks cool. I've noticed a couple SAC fans on here and lots of skeptics, as well. I use my laptop for lighting and find that the computer itself is the weak link. This weekend it suddenly stopped liking the USB->DMX driver and everything started strobing mid-set. It is a rock-solid laptop in every other way, so it is hard to feel comfortable with the idea of going all-in with FOH on a normal consumer computer. But still - we'll be interested in hearing about your journey with this.

 

Does SAC allow you hover your mouse over a "knob" and do fine-tuning with the mouse wheel? I wish my DMX software supported this.

 

Have you had any gotchas yet?

[Richard King]

I've done three FOH projects (one rock band and 2 jazz bands) using Reaper and Presonus Universal Control along with a Presonus Firestudio and Digimax FS. All went well and I look forward to trying it again.

[Tom Hicks]

 

Hi - looks cool. I've noticed a couple SAC fans on here and lots of skeptics, as well. I use my laptop for lighting and find that the computer itself is the weak link. This weekend it suddenly stopped liking the USB->DMX driver and everything started strobing mid-set. It is a rock-solid laptop in every other way, so it is hard to feel comfortable with the idea of going all-in with FOH on a normal consumer computer. But still - we'll be interested in hearing about your journey with this. Does SAC allow you hover your mouse over a "knob" and do fine-tuning with the mouse wheel? I wish my DMX software supported this. Have you had any gotchas yet?

 

 

The mouse wheel scrolls the channel selection. Knobs and buttons can be click-drag adjusted, but its faster to use the arrow keys on the faders. We have an 8 channel remote usb controller/fader pack, but I don't really use it. The mouse and arrow keys are handy enough. The laptop is linked to the server on stage, so its just a remote control unit instead of a processor. I've tried wireless remote and had dropouts on connectivity, so we've been using 100' of ethernet cable from the laptop to the router on the server rack. I think they should put the wireless router on top of the speaker cabs instead of behind them on the server rack, so we have line of sight to the laptop. I'd like to walk around with the remote netbook if we can trust the wireless setup.

[twostone]

 

I've done three FOH projects (one rock band and 2 jazz bands) using Reaper and Presonus Universal Control along with a Presonus Firestudio and Digimax FS. All went well and I look forward to trying it again.

 

 

So you routing each Reaper track to the UC mixer channel? and how do go about EQ-ing each indivual channel and adding comp or FX?

Reason I ask I got Presonus SL 16 mixer and firestudio which I can daisy chain the firestudio in the SL16 mixer giving me 8 extra channel, but with my UC mixer it sees all 24 channels. Problem is that I can only use the fat channel for only 16 of them. My work around was maybe Reaper since the other firewire port goes into my laptop and use Reaper to handle the extra 8 channels.

[bassred]

We use it in our rehearsal space, but haven't used it live yet. We have a rock solid analog rig and run sound from the stage, though, so it's not like we need anything too fancy. I love it for mixing the headphones/PA in 'The Cave', though! My drummer has his laptop setup as a wireless controller at his kit, and I can make adjustments on the PC that is running everything, too.

[agedhorse]

Today my f*cking laptop stopped recognizing my FastTrack inteface as I was starting a job. Fortunately it was a testing situation, but re-initiated the drivers and the second time it started working again. Had this glitch been under the pressure of a live show, it would have been an end of life situation for maybe the laptop, the interface and certainly the approach. Sorry, works sometimes, doesn't work sometimes doesn't cut it for my clients.

[KellyMainEvent]

Are you selling the Yamaha MC32/12??

[Reson8tor]

I could see this working well, if you have some kind of ironclad, hot-swap backup plan for the laptop going down. Otherwise I'm not ready to go there, just speaking for myself and my own gigs. I'm thinking about going to the middle ground of a compact digital mixer in the near future, but a laptop-based mixer is a bridge too far for me, right now.

 

As a side note: I do some remote recording gigs; mostly classical and acoustic jazz. I've been using a laptop computer with a hardware-based backup, and this year I'm ditching the computer and going dual-hardware recorders, because I just don't trust a laptop for critical "gotta get 'er done!" situations.

 

YMMV, and I'm honestly curious about how people are handling the backup situation, if the laptop suddenly takes a dive. What's the next step?

[Dogoth]

I've gotten to check out an SAC mixer a couple of times. I think the interface would take a little getting used to (sort of like the Gamble digital controler) because you don't really have a decent view of the whole board at once but...... I think I liked it anyway. It's like going from most digital boards and goint to a Presonus studio live (never driven one but I have checked one out exrensivly). It's just setup a little different, but still not bad and in some situations better. I'm not sure I'd trust the "B" mic pre's they sell with their turn key systems but with better (real more reliable) fornt end, I'd seriously consider getting one (if it was for my own use). The computer side seemed rock solid and like it was using very little overhead (especialy considering what it's doing and how REALLY versitile it is).

 

That's my .02

[twostone]

Today my f*cking laptop stopped recognizing my FastTrack inteface as I was starting a job. Fortunately it was a testing situation, but re-initiated the drivers and the second time it started working again. Had this glitch been under the pressure of a live show, it would have been an end of life situation for maybe the laptop, the interface and certainly the approach. Sorry, works sometimes, doesn't work sometimes doesn't cut it for my clients.

 

Why not use your ipod touch and this app. http://www.studiosixdigital.com/iphone_measurement_micropho.html and ditch the laptop and interface.

Also they have Smarrt app to if you need measurement tools.

 

Really be nice to see some political app and replace some of the overpriced politicians we have representing us.

 

They wanna make us sims anyway why not start with them first.

[Tom Hicks]

 

I've gotten to check out an SAC mixer a couple of times. I think the interface would take a little getting used to (sort of like the Gamble digital controler) because you don't really have a decent view of the whole board at once but...... I think I liked it anyway. It's like going from most digital boards and goint to a Presonus studio live (never driven one but I have checked one out exrensivly). It's just setup a little different, but still not bad and in some situations better. I'm not sure I'd trust the "B" mic pre's they sell with their turn key systems but with better (real more reliable) fornt end, I'd seriously consider getting one (if it was for my own use). The computer side seemed rock solid and like it was using very little overhead (especialy considering what it's doing and how REALLY versitile it is). That's my .02

 

 

You can configure with whatever hardware pres that you prefer. And your computer processor of choice, and high end soundcard of choice. You are not locked into a particular mfg.

Dittos on the efficiency of the system. Low CPU overhead and it does a lot of processing of lots of channels and effects.

[dboomer]

Hey Tom

 

What's the latency in to out? Sample rate?

 

I've been playing with Propellerhead Record and using it as a live mixer for a project I'm working on. It has the possibility of 64x64 (hardware not included, of course) and has about every plug-in efx known to man all built-in for $299 retail. Dragging around a laptop and an interface beats the snot out of a couple of racks and a mixer.

 

I think these systems (and similar) are the wave of the near future ... just add the breakout boxes. Probably a bit on the bleeding edge side for most users at this point though.

[dboomer]

 

When i momentarily lost wireless connectivity with the laptop,

 

 

Wi-Fi SUCKS for mission critical applications. Use it at your own risk;)

[agedhorse]

It's not the wireless loss of connectivity, it's the hardware and software computer side of things that is the issue. I have had way more laptop crashes over the last 5 or 6 years than several lifetimes of consoles. In fact, knock wood, I have never had a console failure with maybe a dozen different consoles over 30 years.

[dboomer]

I have had way more laptop crashes over the last 5 or 6 years than several lifetimes of consoles.

 

Me too ... but it's a very small number and getting better all the time. My last digital boards never had a crash and neither has this current setup that I'm running. Considering that there is about 10x more stuff running that if I were running in a conventional fashion I guess I'm about even.

 

Some things are more stable than others and it depends on how you set them up. After all ... inside every digital board IS a dedicated computer. And yes ... there are a few problems.

 

You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile

[scarecrowbob]

I've been thinking about it for a bit, and I hate to be negative, but as cool as this tech is it isn't solving the problems that I thought it would solve.

 

At the risk of overlooking the obvious direction of this post, I am less and less sure that having a comp and eq on each of 72 channels is a good thing.

 

The longer I am around the less I think that the issue is price vs. watts or price vs. channel count or price vs. processing power. The issue is general quality of music. Most of the people I speak with want to hear music quieter with better arrangements and better players in more compelling settings. Using native computers to do production audio certainly is powerful stuff, and I can see how you could do a lot of interesting things with it, but currently I am trying to find the best places to simplify and cut down the number of channels and mixes and processing. Technology certainly seems to push in the opposite direction.

 

Admittedly, that misses what most folks would find meaningful about the tech, but it's my .02.

[fdew]

 

Today my f*cking laptop stopped recognizing my FastTrack inteface as I was starting a job. Fortunately it was a testing situation, but re-initiated the drivers and the second time it started working again. Had this glitch been under the pressure of a live show, it would have been an end of life situation for maybe the laptop, the interface and certainly the approach. Sorry, works sometimes, doesn't work sometimes doesn't cut it for my clients.

 

 

It certainly would not cut it for my clients either. The average general purpose PC is loaded with programs from a number of different vendors. It is only a matter of time before something doesn't get along with something else. Therefor, a PC setup for use as a SAC mixer should not be a general purpose PC. The computer should start with a clean empty hard drive, Then a clean install of windows, then disable all the windows "features" that are not needed. Windows is ADD. It is always running off and doing something like checking to see if you put a CD in the drive in the last 30 sec, or checking for updates. Turn all this off. The computer then gets the SAC software, and the drivers for the sound equipment. That's it. It never sees the internet. It never sees email. It never gets on a network unless it is a dedicated protected hidden network used by SAC remotes. Set up this way, the computer is not prone to crashes.

 

Yes, it is a lot of work. You can buy a good digital mixer in a box and it is ready to go.

If you need or want the features of a SAC mixer then you can build one. If you build it carefully you will have a good mixer.

 

Frank

[Coaster]

didnt the guy who makes SAC get banned?

[fdew]

 

YMMV, and I'm honestly curious about how people are handling the backup situation, if the laptop suddenly takes a dive. What's the next step?

 

 

I don't use a laptop. My system is a permanent install, I use a desk top purpose built for SAC, and a second older computer as a backup. the backup is fully loaded and ready to go, but I have not used it except for testing. I think if I was building for portable I would use a 2U or 3U rack computer. Then use a laptop for a remote. (The remotes only run a GUI, they never see audio)

[scarecrowbob]

 

didnt the guy who makes SAC get banned?

 

 

SAC is a piece of software that evolved out of an older DAW program and has been around for a long while in some form or another. IIRC, it came out of Bob Lentin's SAW which (and my memory is hazy) was developed in the early 90s.

 

If you can read this site(it hurts my eyes), it goes over that:

 

http://www.rmllabs.com/SAC.htm

 

However, as far as I can tell there is a cottage industry which has developed around putting together turn-key SAC systems, which seems kind of odd to me as if you don't have the IT resource to build the system you probably don't have the resources to troubleshoot it in the field (once again, that might be a bad assumption).

 

One of those turn-key provider folks was here and getting kind of belligerent. I dunno anything about the specifics, but that poster did have a link to their commercial site and did not make his interest in the topic known. But I think he got banned for being a jerk more than anything else.

[fdew]

 

I've gotten to check out an SAC mixer a couple of times. I think the interface would take a little getting used to (sort of like the Gamble digital controler) because you don't really have a decent view of the whole board at once but...... That's my .02

 

 

This depends on your display(s) and, of course on how many ch you have. I run 40 ch and use a duel screen display. All 40 ch and all outputs take up all of one display and about a third of another (faders, meters, solo, mute, for each) the rest of the second display shows my scenes and a wide ch (everything) for whatever ch I touched last.

[agedhorse]

 

However, as far as I can tell there is a cottage industry which has developed around putting together turn-key SAC systems, which seems kind of odd to me as if you don't have the IT resource to build the system you probably don't have the resources to troubleshoot it in the field (once again, that might be a bad assumption).

 

 

I think your understanding and perspective is pretty darn accurate.

[twostone]

 

SAC is a piece of software that evolved out of an older DAW program and has been around for a long while in some form or another. IIRC, it came out of Bob Lentin's SAW which (and my memory is hazy) was developed in the early 90s. If you can read this site(it hurts my eyes), it goes over that: http://www.rmllabs.com/SAC.htm However, as far as I can tell there is a cottage industry which has developed around putting together turn-key SAC systems, which seems kind of odd to me as if you don't have the IT resource to build the system you probably don't have the resources to troubleshoot it in the field (once again, that might be a bad assumption). One of those turn-key provider folks was here and getting kind of belligerent. I dunno anything about the specifics, but that poster did have a link to their commercial site and did not make his interest in the topic known. But I think he got banned for being a jerk more than anything else.

 

 

Why would it be odd for them to offer a turn-key system? Anybody can go buy a digital console which is just another piece of hardware and computer combined.

I don't have a IT background for my digital mixer nor the resources to make one and same goes for my DAW rig.

I will say this. I got my first DAW rig back in 99 and had a lot of hair pulling aggravation because I couldn't get 2 Echo Gina cards to sync up right but their tech support step me right through. I will say this interfaces and computers are helluva lot more stable then they was back in 99 when I first started out.

Plus with the Internet and all of the information. Lot of folks don't mind helping you out with trouble shooting like this forum.

After I joined this forum 6 years ago I stop frying speakers and sound 1000x times better then before I found this place.

[fdew]

 

However, as far as I can tell there is a cottage industry which has developed around putting together turn-key SAC systems, which seems kind of odd to me as if you don't have the IT resource to build the system you probably don't have the resources to troubleshoot it in the field (once again, that might be a bad assumption).

 

 

I agree, While you only need to know music and how to mix to use it, There should be a person who is comfortable around computers and putting together audio hardware. Maybe not a full up IT pro, but someone who would not hesitate to put together a home office with two or more computers printers a router ETC. It is that level that is needed. You need this knowledge because you are putting together a system from many vendors. You can't call MOTU and ask them how to interface to SAC or your preamp. They don't know.