Members mockchoi Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 I know there are no magic bullets...but any ideas people have I would sure appreciate. I'm so tired of trying to find a decent monitor mix. We'll try to get something decent, then a 'loud guitar' song later in the set totally blows everything. I always find myself not hearing my guitar/my vocals, something. It always seems to get progressively worse as the night goes on. We have a complicated mix with 4 singers and a wide variety of song dynamics and volumes. Monitor mixes are handled front of house. I have my own mix. I'm using a Shure PSM200. I don't know exactly what I'm asking for...but I have issues every single show. Any ideas? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 Are the guitars getting louder, for the loud guitar songs, Are there individual mixes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mockchoi Posted May 1, 2012 Author Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 Are the guitars getting louder, for the loud guitar songs,Are there individual mixes? 1) I assume so...it's hard to tell on stage with iem's in2) Yes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 Rule number one... try to manage band dynamics from the stage. If you listen to most really well produced bands, this is one tool used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members minn12 Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 I know there are no magic bullets...but any ideas people have I would sure appreciate.I'm so tired of trying to find a decent monitor mix. We'll try to get something decent, then a 'loud guitar' song later in the set totally blows everything. I always find myself not hearing my guitar/my vocals, something. It always seems to get progressively worse as the night goes on.We have a complicated mix with 4 singers and a wide variety of song dynamics and volumes.Monitor mixes are handled front of house. I have my own mix. I'm using a Shure PSM200.I don't know exactly what I'm asking for...but I have issues every single show. Any ideas? Is everyone on IEMs, or just you? Do you have your own regular FOH tech, or is this a situation where you play in clubs with different engineers that have to provide your mixes? Just trying to better understand what your situation is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Marko Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 ... then a 'loud guitar' song later in the set totally blows everything.,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stangconv Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 Is the guitarist using a multi fx? Might have his patch volumes out to lunch? Sound check using the loud song? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vinny D Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 My vote....and it won't be popular...lose the IEM's...Sorry, just not a fan of IEM's on the local bar circuit.I know plenty of people claim they work wonderful, but I see time after time local bands struggling with IEM's over the same issues as the OP is having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 First, you have PSM200s which are mono. This is where stereo can help because you can reduce the levels of everything else and still hear them if everything is placed well in the mix. This leaves more room for a guitar to turn up before it overpowers you. You say it gets worse as the night goes on. Your mix is determined at the start of the night. As the night goes on and the guitar gets louder on stage, the signal gets hotter to the console so the signal to your ears get hotter, but your voice remains the same level in ears, since you can't turn it up. This is a time where compression of OTHER channels in your ears will, but that requires either digital consoles, or lots of outboard gear. A stereo mix with with good compression on instruments, and not on vocals can get you a long way but that isn't the real fix. The real issue is that without substantial investment and skills, you can't fix this with anything other than discipline of the players. If they insist on cranking as the night goes on, then you can either make the investment, get more discipline, replace the players, or live with it. Your practical options are limited since nothing fixes this problem like going to the source of the issue, and confronting them on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 My vote....and it won't be popular...lose the IEM's...Sorry, just not a fan of IEM's on the local bar circuit.I know plenty of people claim they work wonderful, but I see time after time local bands struggling with IEM's over the same issues as the OP is having. Vinny, you know like I do, that has more to do with the skill and discipline of players at the bar level than it does with utility of IEMs. It is like giving a Ferrari to kids on a go-cart track. They can't handle or control it, but nobody blames Ferrari for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 My vote....and it won't be popular...lose the IEM's...Sorry, just not a fan of IEM's on the local bar circuit.I know plenty of people claim they work wonderful, but I see time after time local bands struggling with IEM's over the same issues as the OP is having. I really don't think this is about the IEM's... Using them helped save me from blowing out my voice on our 4 X 45 minute set nights, and brought musicality back to my singing (instead of simply trying to sing louder to hear myself). If you have them, use them. What this comes down to is your players. If things change during the night, then someone is turning up, or has settings that are louder that they don't use all night until a certain set of songs or something. I used to play with a guy who would turn up a little bit each set (as the zing from the guitar amps and cymbals made his older ears react, he would hear more of the bass) and it was really annoying. He played a Buddha 16 watt amp and by the end of the night it was blowing away my bass amp and a marshall half stack. One night he told me to not turn my bass up like I have been known to do... so I put a sharpie dot on all of the knobs on my rig at the beggining of the night. THird set, he walks over and starts to lecture me about 'now I asked you not to turn yourself up...' and I showed him the knobs, all still lined up with the same dots. Then he started to believe me that it was his ears. On the other hand, my last cover band was a bunch of pro's who all kept control of their volumes and didn't change once we sound-checked. Each person had their own solo level, which they only used during their solos and that was that. night after night I would set up the PA and barely have to make an adjustment on my IEM mix because everything would stay consistent (and since I was the one doing soun check, all of the inputs were being brought in to peak at -0- on the meter, so my mix never changed! WHat I would recommend is choosing the song that is causing the most trouble, and as mentioned by someone else, sound check to the loudest song. also make sure your band mates know that once you get everything dialed in, they should not be turning up (unless it is a solo and they are going to a preset boost that gets them just to where they need to be for that part..) We have a lot of dynamics in our set, but they are all controlled by us and are set up in such a way that they work FOR us and not against us.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vinny D Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 The real issue is that without substantial investment and skills, you can't fix this with anything other than discipline of the players. If they insist on cranking as the night goes on, then you can either make the investment, get more discipline, replace the players, or live with it. Your practical options are limited since nothing fixes this problem like going to the source of the issue, and confronting them on it. Agree 100%....which is why I always state that on the local bar level I see way to many IEM failures.Local level bands never have the money to do it properlyThe skill set is not there of a pro-level bandTrying to talk to band members about levels 99.99% of the time just turns into finger pointing about whom is to blame and never fixes the issue. Again, I said my vote would not be popular to the IEM fans, but this has been my experience with watching..and dealing..with bands on the local level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 Kinda funny, we have the opposite issue with our guitarist. We're all on IEM's and he has his amp turned down so low you can barely hear it in the room. At a gig Saturday the soundguy had to ask him to turn up as he had the trim topped out on that channel and still wasn't getting enough . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 I have had that with our guitarist, but only a few times. The rest of the band played direct and stayed on him so badly about stage volume that he took it to heart TOO much. After a little while he stabilized though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 With a StudioLive you can adjust your personal monitor mix onstage via QMix running on an iPhone/iPad/iPod touch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 I have had that with our guitarist, but only a few times. The rest of the band played direct and stayed on him so badly about stage volume that he took it to heart TOO much. After a little while he stabilized though.I'm gonna bring it up next rehearsal - also every time he sets up he's at a different volume and we all have to tweak our IEM mixes . Yah, bass and keys are direct - but we rehearse with the PA set up and on some although I'm not quite sure why (not my PA or rehearsal space nor am I the band leader). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wardjames Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 First, you have PSM200s which are mono. This is where stereo can help because you can reduce the levels of everything else and still hear them if everything is placed well in the mix. This leaves more room for a guitar to turn up before it overpowers you. You say it gets worse as the night goes on. Your mix is determined at the start of the night. As the night goes on and the guitar gets louder on stage, the signal gets hotter to the console so the signal to your ears get hotter, but your voice remains the same level in ears, since you can't turn it up. This is a time where compression of OTHER channels in your ears will, but that requires either digital consoles, or lots of outboard gear. A stereo mix with with good compression on instruments, and not on vocals can get you a long way but that isn't the real fix.The real issue is that without substantial investment and skills, you can't fix this with anything other than discipline of the players. If they insist on cranking as the night goes on, then you can either make the investment, get more discipline, replace the players, or live with it. Your practical options are limited since nothing fixes this problem like going to the source of the issue, and confronting them on it. I hate to even suggest an equipment fix here, because I think the issue is playing too loud, but wouldn't running his mix through a Rolls Personal Monitor System be a decent fix? He could run the mix through one channel and his vocals through the other, and turn down the mix as the night goes on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 With a StudioLive you can adjust your personal monitor mix onstage via QMix running on an iPhone/iPad/iPod touch... The constant fiddling with the monitor mix would add to the show's audience appeal too It's a bandaid for the symptom... not a cure. The cure would be to solve the problem, not cover it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 Ward, any stereo IEM that allows a "more me" mix would probably be OK. We started that way. I had a "band" mix channel, and each player got a "more me" channel that could be their vocal or vocal and instrument, etc. It works OK for the most part. Any of this is still just fixing the symptoms though. The real problem is a lack of dynamics, stage skills, and self control. Anything else you work on is just a "get-by" approach. The only solution is to learn that an on-stage mix should sound just like a FOH mix, except quieter. If most bands could go watch a skilled bluegrass band that has mastered the one mic technique, and learn from it, these problems would go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wardjames Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 Ward, any stereo IEM that allows a "more me" mix would probably be OK. We started that way. I had a "band" mix channel, and each player got a "more me" channel that could be their vocal or vocal and instrument, etc. It works OK for the most part. Any of this is still just fixing the symptoms though. The real problem is a lack of dynamics, stage skills, and self control. Anything else you work on is just a "get-by" approach. The only solution is to learn that an on-stage mix should sound just like a FOH mix, except quieter. If most bands could go watch a skilled bluegrass band that has mastered the one mic technique, and learn from it, these problems would go away. Agreed. There's so many mix problems that get solved by dynamics. We used to have feedback issues, and "more me" requests all the time. I've replaced a couple of players, we've really focused on dynamics, and boom...the problem's gone. This may be sacrilege, but I don't even bother ringing out monitors even more because we're not even close to having feedback issues...all because of controlling dynamics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 Ward, that sounds like the beginning of a successful group. Few musicians excel at performing until they have the basics under their belts, and that often doesn't come soon enough, if at all, for many. Glad you figured that out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kmart Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 My vote....and it won't be popular...lose the IEM's...Sorry, just not a fan of IEM's on the local bar circuit.I know plenty of people claim they work wonderful, but I see time after time local bands struggling with IEM's over the same issues as the OP is having. Yeah, as has been stated, the issue isn't the IEMs: it's the players who think it a good idea to continally let amp volumes, etc. creep up as the night progresses (or inconsistant patch volumes). My primary band is on ears, and monitor mixes are run via a laptop that happens to reside next to me all night running Main Stage.I can count the number of times I've had to/it's been requested to adjust someone's monitor mix, including mine, during a gig on one hand, with close to a half dozen fingers left over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 The constant fiddling with the monitor mix would add to the show's audience appeal too It's a bandaid for the symptom... not a cure. The cure would be to solve the problem, not cover it up. True. I never "give the Zoo keys to the animals" if you know what I mean. I can do a quick adjustment during the show... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bobby1Note Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 Ward, any stereo IEM that allows a "more me" mix would probably be OK. We started that way. I had a "band" mix channel, and each player got a "more me" channel that could be their vocal or vocal and instrument, etc. It works OK for the most part. Any of this is still just fixing the symptoms though. The real problem is a lack of dynamics, stage skills, and self control. Anything else you work on is just a "get-by" approach. The only solution is to learn that an on-stage mix should sound just like a FOH mix, except quieter. If most bands could go watch a skilled bluegrass band that has mastered the one mic technique, and learn from it, these problems would go away. Bingo !!! I went to a large concert a few years back. (70,000+ est). I had a back-stage pass for that one, and during the concert, I was snapping pics from stage left, stage right, on the front apron of the stage, etc. No matter where I was standing, the sound was perfectly balanced, and sounded the same. The lead vocalist was wandering the very large stage, with no issues. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LewnWorx Posted May 1, 2012 Members Share Posted May 1, 2012 The only solution is to learn that an on-stage mix should sound just like a FOH mix, except quieter. If most bands could go watch a skilled bluegrass band that has mastered the one mic technique, and learn from it, these problems would go away. Roger that. That (Bluegrass and it's various derivatives) is pretty much all I do these days. You couldn't pay me enough (well ok, maybe for insane cash) to put up with the bloated over the top rock star egos covering for lack of actual performance professionalism bull{censored} any more. And it's been really nice departure from the rock and roll days. The quality of the musicians is superb. They don't get into volume wars, they understand balance, and (unlike many genres) they have a keen sense of retaining their hearing for the long run. Stage volumes are remarkably quiet, even for the bands that have some electric instrumentation and kits. And the truth is, most of these guys can play circles around the average rivet head shredder type. These guys have real technique. Without the walls of Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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