Harmony Central Forums
Announcement Announcement Module
Collapse
No announcement yet.

Subgroups vs Aux's

Page Title Module
Move Remove Collapse







X
Conversation Detail Module
Collapse
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Subgroups vs Aux's

    I have read some interesting threads regarding the use of available Aux's to feed subwoofers cabinets (passive or active), however, based on my current mixer (sx3242fx from behringer) I have 4 Aux, 2 of them correspond to the internal effects, and the other 2 I use them for monitor routing such gives me 2 monitor mixes (I can use the other 2 Aux but I would loose the effects) so i was thinking to use the Subgroups instead the Aux that the other threads recommend; and I would like to hear advice from you if this would be reliable or bad for my gear, I have an event this weekend on a church were everyone iit's important (bands), they would share the drum kit, and the Backline gear as well

    Mainly what I want is to send the kick drum and the bass signal just to the Subs and no to the tops, I would have to press the sub buttons over the mixer and assign the channels to feed the Subs, I haven't done that before, (I always connect the main outs to the Subs and then from the outputs of the Subs to the tops), I've been watching that some friends over here who have an x32 are doing the same kind of routing that I'm mentioning (santa is bringing me brand new X32 this Xmas, he better have to arrive with it, lol)

    If you have another suggestion pls feel free to write it over here,


  • #2
    I use a crossover instead of an aux.
    NO SIGNATURE FOR YOU!!

    Comment


    • JV90
      JV90 commented
      Editing a comment
      Thanks for the reply stratguy, but my powered Subs comes with a crossover, it's the same principle using the Aux to feed the Subs, but instead of using an Aux I'll be using a subgroup,

  • #3

    Kick and bass through just subs with no mid/hi will sound REALLY bad. I would never recommend this.

    Comment


    • agedhorse
      agedhorse commented
      Editing a comment

      Axisplayer wrote:

      Kick and bass through just subs with no mid/hi will sound REALLY bad. I would never recommend this.


      Agreed. Horrible, really horrible.


  • #4
    You got that right Axis.....however, I deal with many Latin and Spanish customers that think the bass guitar shouldn't come through the mid/hi box. I don't understand why they think it sounds right. Somebody along the line in their community has taught a lot of them the wrong way to do things.

    Comment


    • #5
      I see, so? What is then the difference to run the Subs via an Aux then? I

      I've always connect my gear from the main outputs to the inputs of the powered Subs, then from the outputs of the Subs to the inputs of the powered speakers, and it worked ashtrays fine, however after reading that some people are connecting the Subs vida Aux from the mixer outputs, then the main or would be connect it to the tops, as I did before I've never try to connect it that way, what also I can do is to run the tops from the main output, and then on the mixer I have a mono out that I can connect to the powered Subs, the difference is that all the signal is going to the Subs and the tops as well

      You are right sonic man, over the Latin American people, they always would like to hear the bass and the kick higher than the other instruments the east you mention, but I don't do tha, I prefer to get a nice mix with eeverything according,

      I'm installing my gear on Friday afternoon so I'm having ask the afternoon- evening to do sound check and change the configuration if I want it, so it is a bad idea then? What makes this different from running thru an Aux the Subs then? Shoul Iinstall the normal way (from main out to the input of the Subs and then from the out of the Subs to the input of the tops?) it world be better then to connect the Subs via the mono out? (o have a fat that controls the volume and a frequency control)..???

      Comment


      • agedhorse
        agedhorse commented
        Editing a comment

        In order to have the aux fed subs work properly, you need to have the tops high passed and the subs lowpassed otherwise the tops will try to reproduce the <100Hz sub and kick content. One of the primary benefits of a crossed over system (regardless of if it's aux fed sub or not) is keepig the sub information (<100Hz) out of the tops.

        In fact, I would say that non-aux fed sub system with a proper crossover between subs and tops is far superior in practice to an improper aux fed sub system. In fact, I usually do not find aux fed subs all that useful under most conditions even when properly configured.


    • #6

      JV90 wrote:

      Mainly what I want is to send the kick drum and the bass signal just to the Subs and no to the tops, I would have to press the sub buttons over the mixer and assign the channels to feed the Subs, I haven't done that before, (I always connect the main outs to the Subs and then from the outputs of the Subs to the tops), I've been watching that some friends over here who have an x32 are doing the same kind of routing that I'm mentioning (santa is bringing me brand new X32 this Xmas, he better have to arrive with it, lol)

      If you have another suggestion pls feel free to write it over here,


      So if I'm getting this right, you don't want to have any kick or bass in your top FOH speakers. Assuming your board has the routing capabilities to do so, then yes sending kick and bass to a sub and going from that sub group out to your subwoofers (and unassigning the sub group to the mains) would get you there.

      The only time I could see doing this and achieving okay results, is if the gig was so quiet that the attack from the kick.... was audible from stage, but you just wanted to round out the bottom end a little.

      But just realize that if you do this, you can't use the subwoofer's crossover to go to your tops - they will be getting full range on all the rest of the instruments,

      Good grief, I see there is a small GEQ on that board. Well I don't know what to say. I guess you could put kick and bass into your mains, pull the 80hz slider (and below) down, run the kick and bass channels low (like minus 6db or less) and then crank the sub outs and feed them just to the subwoofers. You would barely hear the kick and bass through the mains in that scenario. I had a house gig where I did just that - but if you haven't done it before, or can't fully grasp the concept, it could backfire. YMMV.

      Perhaps you could just run full range, crossed over properly, and turn the treble and mids down on the kick and bass - hopefully the clients wouldn't notice those instruments if they couldn't hear the attack. Or perhaps your clients could just be shown the error of their ways

      Comment


      • #7
        I see, so mainly it's better to go with the basic connections at all like AH and Shaster are recommend, what about using the mono output? Using the fader to feed the signal (anyone) justto the Subs? If I do that, the tops would be without any crossover and all the signal would go to them as well? I'll stick then to the original connections and check the high and mids like you guys mention, I'm going to make some problem in something that doesn't have,

        If you have other advice? I was wondering if a Driverack px would help cause in my speakers I don't have any dsp at all,

        Comment


        • #8
          IMO, you are you going to be much better off using the conventional connections and crossover in your powered speakers. You do not yet understand the concept being explained, which when done correctly maybe proved a minor benefit but when done wrong provide major problems.

          Comment


          • #9

            JV90 wrote:


            Mainly what I want is to send the kick drum and the bass signal just to the Subs and no to the tops, I would have to press the sub buttons over the mixer and assign the channels to feed the Subs, I haven't done that before, (I always connect the main outs to the Subs and then from the outputs of the Subs to the tops), I've been watching that some friends over here who have an x32 are doing the same kind of routing that I'm mentioning (santa is bringing me brand new X32 this Xmas, he better have to arrive with it, lol)

            If you have another suggestion pls feel free to write it over here,


            Aux fed subs are a common setup I have seen in Churches but generally speaking it is not to take signal out of the tops, but to keep certain sources out of the subs. The kick/toms/etc are still sent to both tops and subs, but vocals are only in the tops.

             

            In a typical setup a kick drum in only the sub would sound bad as others have mentioned.

             

            For me I only use aux fed subs when the situation requires it. 

            Comment


            • agedhorse
              agedhorse commented
              Editing a comment

              Churches are guilty of misreading something in a church AV magazine and totally mixing it up. You do not want overlapping sources in subs and tops without the HP/LP filters.


          • #10
            Thanks Dookietwo for your complete assessment, I have a behringer sx3242fx, and my powered speakers are the TS300A for tops abs the EB118A for Subs (www.elderaudio.com),

            Comment


            • Craig Vecchione
              Craig Vecchione commented
              Editing a comment

              I think Andy is right in thinking that you don't understand the concept and correct routing for Aux Fed Subs. The problem that aux fed subs is supposed to correct is LF non-musical mud getting to the subs from sources that have no LF music content. Examples are vocal mics that contribute stage rumble, cymbal mics picking up low toms and kick, etc.


              For the most part, a properly adjusted HPF on these channels should handle things well. But feeding the subs via an auxiliary send will allow you to only send source from a LF instrument, eliminating much of the mud from channels that don't have good LF source. A post-fader aux send to the subs can do this. It's still a good idea to use a crossover channel to LPF the subs, and of course another channel (or two if you're running stereo) of crossover should be dedicated to the 'normal' LR or Mono output to HPF the mid-high speakers source.


          • #11
            Well I've never had the opportunity to connect my gear using the Aux to feed the Subs, I've always connect them the traditional way like I mentioned before, but I was curious about that and doing it with the Subs cause i don't have enough Aux to use, that's why I asked; Thats the (I can't find the word at these moment to use) "Chevere" in spanish means like Good, awesome, like, and so others, thing that this forums are for, if you guys know more regarding this topic? Then I know that I can count for your experience, view points, reference, knowledge, know how, and learn from you

            Isn't it that good? At least for me it is; now I understand that it would be better to use in the traditional way, even when my x32 arrive to my house to connect my gear on the same manner and experiment in other things like sub placements and others

            Comment


            • Craig Vecchione
              Craig Vecchione commented
              Editing a comment

              Yes, absolutely, it's good to ask and learn. The lesson is to always try to understand what you are doing, why you are doing it, and what can go wrong, before attempting a new process/procedure/setup. It's better to know the pitfalls as well as the pluses *before* the show, so you don't have real problems you can't fix *during* the show!


          • #12
            Right Craigv,

            Comment


            • #13
              Often, the more you know the more obvious keeping things simple becomes!

              Comment


              • #14
                Yup, today I installed my system on the church for the upcoming event (wich ir happens to be tomorrow Saturday) and I went the usual way, like Craig and AH said, the simple the better...

                Comment


                • agedhorse
                  agedhorse commented
                  Editing a comment

                  You will thank us after the event


                • Dookietwo
                  Dookietwo commented
                  Editing a comment

                  JV90;

                  I looked at your speakers and they don't have a Low Cut Filter on them. (at least it seems that way looking at the back image) Something that would take aprox 100hz and below out of them.You would need a crossover to take the lows out of them if you want to do a proper Aux sub setup. 

                  Your sub does seem to have a crossover in it that will take High Frequency's out of it. Do you know if it has a High Pass OUT so when you go out your sub to your tops they don't get sub frequencys?  

                  Without a crossover to take the lowest frequencys out of your tops your "standard" setup would be the best.

                  Dookietwo


              • #15
                I'll post some pics of the upcoming event of today,

                Comment

                Working...
                X