Low Budget Tracking?

[RoadRanger]

I suddenly have need to lay down bass tracks against tracks recorded elsewhere. I ordered up a cheap $60 Lexicon Alpha USB I/F (24/48) and figure I can use Audacity to record with and to play back either a stereo scratch mix or the multi-track I need to add to. Anybody see a problem with that? I assume I can then send back my raw track and it will be as good as if I went to the actual studio the project is being done at? I don't think recording in 96Kbps would add anything to a bass track? I may very well end up doing the final at the studio but just want to be able to do as good at home so I have that option. I'll at least be able to write the line at my leasure .

[MikeRivers]

Nothing wrong with that concept, or probably with that interface, if it works. Lexicon never got a lot of traction in that corner of the business because their drivers didn't play nicely with all system early on. It may be all straightened out by now. As far as sample rate is concerned, I'd record your tracks at the same sample rate as the project so the person who's mixing won't have to fuss with that. And given that someone is going to have to line your track up with the previously recorded tracks, it would be good to give them a reference point. If there's a countoff or better, a couple of beats of sidestick on the track that you're overdubbing to, copy it to your track and it'll be easier to align to that than your bass notes.

[RoadRanger]

^ Thanks, i was wondering how to sync it - I thought maybe there was some modern equivalent to SMPTE, whether needing a separate track or somehow embeddable in a WAV file? For that matter how many tracks can a wav file hold? The only multitracks I've dealt with were mogg files and wav-per-track file sets.

[RoadRanger]

Oh, and I guess this I/F comes with Cubase LE, probably just as good as (or better than?) Audacity for this simple job?

[MrKnobs]

^ Thanks, i was wondering how to sync it - I thought maybe there was some modern equivalent to SMPTE, whether needing a separate track or somehow embeddable in a WAV file? For that matter how many tracks can a wav file hold? The only multitracks I've dealt with were mogg files and wav-per-track file sets.

 

Only one point has to match. It's not like tape where it will drift so you need time code. Just start at the top playing to the mix you were given, and all will be fine.

 

Terry D.

[Folder]

 

Audacity is not really a multitrack recording program. It's an audio editor program kind of like WaveLab or SoundForge. You can record multiple tracks with it but I don't think it has any real mixing capabilities. No mix buses or effects sends. The Cubase LE would be a better choice I think for multitrack recording.

 

What were the original tracks recorded with? Are there multiple tracks or is it two track stereo? If your tracks were recorded with a digital stereo recorder then you could probably import them into most DAWs but you can't take a bunch of tracks that were recorded with one DAW like say Sonar and expect to open them in another DAW like Cubase. Most DAWS save their projects in a proprietary format. There is something called Open Media Framework though. I've never used it but I think OMF files are designed so that you can transfer files between different brands of DAWs and they will open with most basic settings intact.

[MikeRivers]

^ Thanks, i was wondering how to sync it - I thought maybe there was some modern equivalent to SMPTE, whether needing a separate track or somehow embeddable in a WAV file? For that matter how many tracks can a wav file hold? The only multitracks I've dealt with were mogg files and wav-per-track file sets.

 

A WAV file is defined for up to 8 channels to accommodate surround sound in a single file but I don't know that anyone actually does that.

 

Word clock is what keeps samples in sync but it doesn't have an absolute time reference. That's what time code is for. Each sample in a digital recording, however, has a time stamp that's relative to the system on which it was recorded. When you overdub using a multi-channel DAW, the "project time" is known by the program and can be used as a reference so that every time you play back the project, the tracks stay in sync. But if you send someone a file recorded on your computer that will be inserted into a project on another computer, it needs to be manually aligned the first time so the program knows when to play the samples with your time stamp.

 

Digital clocks are pretty stable and pretty accurate as far as their frequency is concerned, but if you start two files playing in sync that came from two different sources, if you wait long enough, they'll eventually drift out of sync. This is what word clock synchronization can fix, but not after the fact. But for the duration of a normal pop song, you shouldn't have to worry about drift.

 

You can do overdubbing to new tracks in Audacity, and there's limited mixing capability. You have a volume and pan control for each track. You use the Render function to make a new stereo track that's the mix of your recorded tracks as you have things set. You can't pretend that you're sitting at a console and mixing, though. It doesn't look and feel enough like that. I can't remember if you can dynamically write a volume envelope on a track so you can play through the song and ride levels or do fades. You may have to do that by drawing it in by hand. I haven't used it for several versions. Reaper is cheap, free to try without limitations.

[WRGKMC]

The Cubase package that comes with the interface is an LE version. It should let you record well but its track counts are limited.

You do need to know what kind of file you're going to use. Is it a stereo wave file that's mixed down, is it a bundle or is it separate tracks

from a project.

 

If its a stereo track then importing it into any DAW program is easy. Recording bass and mixing it in with the file will have limitations

because you obviously can remix the stereo track and make the bass fit as well as you would like because its already mixed, so tweaking the bass

in may have limited results but you may still be able to do a good enough job.

 

If its a bundle like a Cakewalk, Cubase or other type of bundles file, you usually need the same DAW program to open this bundle.

It should have all the original tweaks, edits, effects etc. setup within the bundle which is why it will only run properly within the same DAW program

it was created. The version of the program will matter too. It may open in a higher or lower end program but it may have missing elements.

 

Separate wave files is best if you have a different DAW program. You import one wave file at a time till you have the multi tracks set up all beginning at the same

zero starting point. The person sending you the files has to be sure they bounce all partial tracks to fill tracks even if most of the track is silence.

You need that track leader to align the tracks importing them. If you have some instruments punched in at say two minute's in, the file will not import at

that clock position unless there track is bounded to a full length track.

 

Once you import all the tracks you would obviously have to mix the tracks well enough to get something to track the bass to.

The one sending you the files can process the effects into the tracks before they save them so you wont have to redo those.

Then they could write down the pan and track levels so you can just set those in your DAW and be set up fairly quickly to track the bass.

 

From there its just setting up a new track and recording the track. I'm not sure how good the Lexicon is for tracking bass

but it should be able to preamp the bass so it tracks OK. Once you get the track recorded you'll likely have to use some compression to

even up the dynamics and use an EQ to balance the bass frequencies to make it sound right for the mix. I usually use some kind

of Amp emulator effects unit when tracking bass direct. It allows me to adjust dynamics, EQ amp and cab types and dial up the sounds

I want prior to tracking. This saves me time mixing but It can be done either way. If you have a lone out on your bass amp you may want to

try that or micing a bass amp may be another option.

 

 

[RoadRanger]

^ Just to be clear I will only be recording a raw track, no EQ, compression, fx, etc. I will be sending it back to the "studio" for them to import into the project. Most likely I'll ask them for a scratch stereo mix sans bass - and possibly whatever scratch bass track they have as a separate wav file (their bass player quit, didn't want to go to hell playing over them hard-core blues lyrics ) . Dunno if there's some sort of stereo+1 karaoke format that would work for that? Most all I have seen are just "stereo" with a mono mix on one "side" and the vocal on the other "side" .

[WRGKMC]

^^ If that's the case, the only issue you'll be dealing with is, the clock of the scratch track wont match your track when its imported into their project.

This shouldn't be a huge problem however. You can stretch or shrink a track if your clocks wander.

 

For example, A track may start OK because you align the beginnings at 0. If your clock ran a little faster then theirs when recording the bass, it may

run slower on their system and stretch the track out a little as the song progresses. They simply have to shrink the track to fit and remain in sequence with the other tracks.

 

They could put a marker or click on the track at the beginning and end that you'd transfer to your track beginning and end.

Then when they try to fit the track to their DAW, they simply align the clicks.

 

This shouldn't be needed though. DAW clocks are pretty stable in comparison to tape gear that often had wow and flutter and motors that ran at different speeds.

 

Bass is low frequency as well with allot of string inertia. If you had a higher frequency instrument with really fast attacks, then aligning say 32 or 64th notes might

become a problem with drift, but even then you can chop it up in pieces and align those as well. Most DAW's allow this kind of surgical editing when its needed.

It would be better if you could track on their gear, but

 

Give it a shot and see how you make out.

Much of its going to depend on their ability to mix the raw track in.

[RoadRanger]

^^ If that's the case, the only issue you'll be dealing with is, the clock of the scratch track wont match your track when its imported into their project.

This shouldn't be a huge problem however. You can stretch or shrink a track if your clocks wander.

AFAIK there is no actual "clock" embedded in any audio file so I can't see how - if the same clock is used to play back and record with as I assume is true with most all DAWs - that they won't be dead-nuts on?

 

[RoadRanger]

Hmm... did I mention I generally hate "LE" programs? The box says it comes with LE 4, the disc says LE 5 and the dates are 2009, and the "current" version on their website is LE 7 <facepalm>. Oh, and to top it off the registration link given in the docs is dead <double facepalm>.

[RoadRanger]

Well, good news I was able to register and license it - bad news it crashes on launch every time. So much for CuBase LE 5, another crap program tossed in the garbage here .

[MrKnobs]

AFAIK there is no actual "clock" embedded in any audio file so I can't see how - if the same clock is used to play back and record with as I assume is true with most all DAWs - that they won't be dead-nuts on?

 

Yes they will.

 

I have never seen in all the thousands of tracks I've worked with a digital track so off time that it's audibly off over the duration of 4 minutes. I routinely do jobs for studios in other states where they send me a mix for some Austin talent they want to sing or play on it but don't want to pay to fly them out there. Sometimes it's even a three part deal where I sub out stuff (like strings or horns) to yet ANOTHER studio and I have to put it together on my machine then drop box the file to the client studio in New Mexico (for example).

 

Tape is a different matter.

 

Terry D.

[RoadRanger]

Well, alrighty now - I seem to be sucked into that bottomless pit known as "home recording" . All I really want is something like a Portastudio, four tracks without a million options. I briefly looked at Wavosaur but it crashes looking for my VSTs (not important in this case) and can't seem to do synchronized recording of a track while playing back another?

[Beck]

I wouldn't be worried so much about sampling rates as I would a $60.00 interface. "Low Budget Tracking" in my world would be more like a $600.00 interface. What amazes me most about recording today are the toys that pass as options and few people are willing to caution against them anymore. I guess it depends on your expectations. Maybe the majority are assuming this is a harmless hobby and so few are going to get anywhere that it doesn't really matter. I still assume a person desires fully professional results and is serious about their music having an impact and getting somewhere.

 

So speaking of that, is the problem with Cubase LE or the cheap USB interface?

 

Companies are making these products and people are buying them, but this is not real. How do you tell someone his world is not real? It’s very difficult. I have a lot of practice dealing with people caught up in religious cults going back some 30 years ago, but even with all that practice it is still nigh impossible to get someone to ponder the correctness or incorrectness of his culture. These products are in local music stores and online outlets like Musicians Friend, so the must be legit, right? So goes the thinking…

[RoadRanger]

As a separate issue I have the Waves Renaissance Bass 9.1 plug-in they were giving out free last fall and would like to find something to run it in to process mp3 files - I used Reaper once as Audacity seems not to support it. I can't seem to force Wavosaur to "see" it . Any suggestions?

[RoadRanger]

So speaking of that, is the problem with Cubase LE or the cheap USB interface?

It crashed without the I/F plugged in, during the "initializing LCC" phase - I'm guessing that is the wonderful copy protection crap .

 

[RoadRanger]

Hmm... I went through all this 3-4 years ago and concluded there is no simple tracking program for Windows ad that seems to be still the case . There are some nice apps for iOS (and Android?) that emulate a portastudio so I could just use my Mackie DL1608 as an I/F and go that way. But one last chance - anyone know of a simple Windows program that just does tracks - minimal to no EQ and FX , and preferably a fixed number of tracks?

[ambient]

I'd just use reaper, it's far from simple but you don't have to use features you don't want to. If all you wanna do is record a track to an imported wav file, it's pretty straightforward,

[WRGKMC]

Its unlikely its the program that has the issue. Its more likely you didn't have your interface set up and drivers installed first

before you installed Cubase. Cubase is going to look for the drivers as it installs and goes through a hardware test to check

the interfaces capabilities. If it doesn't see a valid interfaces that uses ASIO drivers its not going to run.

 

This is probably going to be the same with most DAW programs now. Most don't recognize windows sound cards.

 

My best suggestion is get your interface up and running first. Make sure you can play back music you have on your

computer using something like windows media player first. If you cant get that to happen, be sure you check the

manufacturers site for the latest drivers. That interface has been out awhile, at lest since XP was out so you may need

the newest drivers for your site.

 

Next read your manuals for both the interface and the DAW program. It should give clear setup instructions.

If you cant get music to play back then you may have to go into the hardware manager and see what's going on

just like any other piece of hardware. Hopefully your computer has a USB 2.0 port

 

Cubase should see the driver once its properly installed and do a hardware check.

You will likely have to set the inputs, outputs and sample rate through the audio options panel.

Cubase is no more difficult to run then learning how to run a program like Microsoft Office.

There's no big mystery to the features listed under the tabs but it is a German product.

They drive on the left side of the road in Europe so the menus have some things that seem to

be reverse logic in its setup but it all makes sense once you figure it out.

 

Use you help files. That's whet they are there for. Arming tracks is simple once you've done it but

it can throw you for a loop the first time around. Finding the recorded wave files on the drive

can be a mystery too. This is all stuff people who use the program may forget because they

already been down that road and had to learn it themselves.

 

If you're looking for a super simple wham bam thank you mam program, I really cant think of one.

All DAWs require some amount of audio knowledge and setup within windows. If you don't

understand the terminology and are having a hard time wrapping your head around how things work,

then there not allot people can do for you. I have a buddy whose like this and no matter how much time

I spend with him on the basics of just setting up a track and recording, he seemed to work himself into a hole

and blame it on the system. This guy ran a cad program doing engineering design work for a living too.

 

A DAW program includes all the options a major analog studio may have. But you don't need to use any of them. You can

just use the record and play button, but you're going to have to learn the basics and where things you need are.

[RoadRanger]

The I/F seems to be working fine. Just for the record I have used Reaper and Audacity for simple tasks before and obviously could go that way. As for CuBase, I believe it would be quite the PITA to uninstall and re-install with the licensing BS. I think I'd have to un-license it before I uninstall it or I'd lose the license ? Studio One lite is another option, as are several other "free" or low cost Windoz programs.

 

Anyways as a EE/CS myself this is WAY too much BS for the simple task I want to do - I can now see why hardware multitracks still sell like crazy. I do have all the hardware to do this more than one way on iOS, that seems a much simpler solution. Also it's quite possible I will want to have others in the project (and future projects) do the same and no way am I going to have them learn a full blown DAW.

 

In my search I came across folks saying they do much less "idea" recording now that they use a DAW than when they had a portastudio. I can sure see why .

[blue2blue]

Setting up a DAW and getting used to it can be a bit of work, to be sure. And, even with all-in-one turnkey DAW hardware/software combos, there can be considerable learning curve.

 

For casual recordists and hobbyists and technophobes, I think a tabletop all-in-one can be a very good solution. They're mostly self-contained, generally quite portable, and typically straightforward. If one's editing and processing needs are relatively minimal, it may be all one ever needs. (And one can generally import the raw tracks into a computer-based DAW for editing/processing if necessary.)

 

That said, those with deeper/broader production requirements who put the effort into learning a given DAW often have access to a far wider set of tools and capabilities.

 

Horses for courses.

[RoadRanger]

Well, I'm guessing a Windoze 8 app will be along soon enough to fill this need, I've seen a Windoze phone app that does it. The only reason I'd rather us Windoze than iOS is I do my charts in Windoze - it's a PITA to enter and edit on the iPad. My laptop + I/F is about as portable as an iPad, CCC, powered hub, and I/F is.

[JeffLearman]

Mike nailed it, as usual.

 

If you're using WAV or AIFF format files, you shouldn't have a problem with sync (if the guy sending you the track knows what he's doing). But it's best to provide a sync signal to remove all doubt. More on that later.

 

^^ If that's the case, the only issue you'll be dealing with is, the clock of the scratch track wont match your track when its imported into their project. This shouldn't be a huge problem however. You can stretch or shrink a track if your clocks wander.

Nope. There definitely will not be a sync problem due to differing clock frequencies. As it turns out, if the clock frequencies are different between his DAW and yours, that will create a pitch error, not a timing error. If anyone wants the reason, just ask. Fortunately, clocks are WAY close enough that any pitch error would be undetectable by the world's most accurate pitch-perfect snob. Ask me nicely and I'll do the math.

 

You get sync problems when you record tracks simultaneously using multiple converters with unsynchronized clocks -- for example, when you have two stereo audio interfaces and try to use them together to record 4 channels, and they don't support synchronization (which most 2-channel interfaces don't, but most 8-or-more-channel interfaces do.)

 

Back to the OP.

 

I assume they'll be sending you a stereo quick mix of the project so far. If you receive an AIFF or WAVE file, load it into Audacity and make sure it's snug to the left of the timeline, and start your recording at the beginning, then the two will match up. AIFF is just the MAC equivalent to WAVE, so don't worry about differences between them. Just convert one to the other if required (I recommend dBPowerAmp Music Converter).

 

Audacity will be fine for tracking. It'll also be fine for mixing a "quick mix" to convert to MP3 to send to the producer to see if they want changes before you bother with the real track. (This is a recommended practice.) That's for them judging your playing, not the sound quality of your recording, so MP3 is fine. If you end up doing a lot of this, you'll probably want a DAW, but it's not necessary.

 

Most likely, the original wave file will have a count-in click, so that everyone (i.e., YOU) can play the first note right on cue. If not, then there'll be an intro and you come in later. (If not, you're screwed: ask for a new track!) In either case, you can provide a sync cue to the producer by mixing the first click or note from that (count-in click or intro) into the file you eventually post. That's probably easier to do in a DAW than in Audacity, but the latter can probably handle it just fine. (Easiest way: copy the original to a new track. Drag the right-handle on the audio clip so that only that first bit is visible. Then mix this new copy with your track. There must be no overlap between the sync bit and your part, of course.)

 

When using MP3 files, you MUST provide an explicit sync signal, because conversion to MP3 and back adds about 25 ms of silence to the beginning, and the amount isn't constant. Now, some may say that only morons would use MP3 for tracking, but the audio quality of MP3 is fine for the stereo cue track you're playing to. So, it makes sense, but it's not the best format due to the sync issue. WMA and Ogg Vorbis do not have this problem. Nor do any of the lossless codecs, such as APE and FLAC.

 

Remote tracking is pretty common these days, and a great way to get a lot of stuff done with less (expensive) studio time. Working this way I can do tracks that are way above what I could actually perform in a studio. On particularly demanding tracks, I sometimes work a few measures at a time, first mastering whatever the heck I want to play, recording those measures, and then moving on. A better player would just play it and nail it, but that's just how I roll!

 

Good luck and enjoy!