Accountability within the music industry

[Instrospection]

To create a demand, you have to be willing to hold back the product. And you have to be able to survive while doing it. With so many musicians having the view that they "must share their art, they must be on stage, they must be heard" it hurts those who do similiar music at a similiar level but want to be paid. We simply don't play unless our price is met. The agent or our cd creates the demand. The client responds or not. Either way, I'm good. But what I won't do is go out and do the gig for little or no money just to be heard, for exposure, for the promise of something in the future. As long as you want to be on stage more than people want to see you be on stage, you can't expect to make any money.

 

 

Martin, my man, you hit the nail on the head. I've actually turned down THREE shows in the last month or two. Simply because our demands of what we feel is something that allows us to cover some semblance of costs for rehearsal space, organization, postering (we automatically poster for all our shows....headline or not), etc. 50 bucks just doesn't cut it.

 

The artists want us to play.....but they're at as much odds to draw people out, too. It's weird, we have alot of artist demand to play shows, but I just politely say that it's not possible for us.

 

Promises of something in the future is usually a crock. Anything successful will be able to offer you something good right away.

[John Bartus]

Sorry for the long post, but here goes...

A lot of what I'm seeing here is about the distinction between being a professional musician vs. being an amateur one. Professionals operate at a higher standard than amateurs, and are compensated for the services they provide. Unless it's a benefit performance for a good cause, or there exists a real potential for career advancement, professional musicians don't play free shows.

As professional musicians, we have limited products and services we can offer for compensation. Service = performance. Product = CDs, downloads, and merch sales. For a professional musician, or someone who claims to be one, to argue that giving their main products and services away for free in order to maximize t-shirt sales is absurd. If you can't get paid for a performance, or people won't buy your CDs or downloads, then maybe there's another issue... like you suck.

Granted, there are certain things professional musicians can do for promotion, e.g., a free download or two to get fans to visit their websites and possibly purchase a CD or paid download. Same with low-cost freebies like bumper stickers that help spread a band's name. And places like Nashville operate under different rules--everyone's there to "make it," and it's likely that your waiter can outsing, outplay, and outwrite you. It's likely that most of the Nashville hopefuls knew what they were getting into before they went there. Otherwise, it can be a rude awakening.

Let's also not forget that the music industry (at all levels) doesn't always attract the most honest and forthright people. Consider all the backstabbing musicians, weasel club owners/managers, crooked agents/managers/attorneys, and the majority of record label deals. With all the people who will rip you off in a heartbeat, why would anyone who considers himself a professional musician continue to just give away his products and services?

Oh... 'cause you want to be a STAR. I get it.

At 46, I know I'm one of the geezers around this forum. And I'm nowhere close to being a star with my full figure and receding hairline. But I have been a full-time professional musician since 1982. Rarely (if ever) has a year gone by that I didn't play at least 200 paid gigs, and that includes the six years I was a City Councilman and Mayor! I've recorded my music and the music of other local bands in my recording studio. I've produced countless jingles, spots, and broadcast music tracks. Over the last six years, I've sold over 5,000 CDs--mostly at gigs and some through CD Baby. I've had over 1,500 paid downloads through iTunes, Rhapsody, etc., and all that without really trying to promote online sales. Currently, I perform 2-3 nights a week solo for real money, and about 2 nights a week with my band, also for real money. And I still love what I do.

So if accountability within the music industry is what you're after, the first person you have to be accountable to is yourself. If you have a talent and product you believe in, don't just give it away. Work on it, refine it, and make it something that people will pay for.

My $0.02. YMMV.

[modulusman]

Good Post John

[sabriel9v]

 

A lot of what I'm seeing here is about the distinction between being a professional musician vs. being an amateur one. Professionals operate at a higher standard than amateurs, and are compensated for the services they provide.

 

 

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I don't believe in the term "professional" musician. I know guys who can play like Steve Vai, but they do it for fun. Just because someone pursues monetary gain from playing an instrument doesn't make them a professional. Define "professional" for me.

[slight-return]

I'm going to play devil's advocate here. I don't believe in the term "professional" musician. I know guys who can play like Steve Vai, but they do it for fun. Just because someone pursues monetary gain from playing an instrument doesn't make them a professional. Define "professional" for me.

 

 

 

Merriam-Webster 2 is probably the most germane (def one has much to do with "one who professes"...as in a religions stance, etc)

 

2 a: participating for gain or livelihood in an activity or field of endeavor often engaged in by amateurs b: having a particular profession as a permanent career c: engaged in by persons receiving financial return

 

It makes a nice counterpoint to "amateur" (the root is basically "lover (of)..." )

 

(note here, the connotation of "unskilled" doesn't com until def 3)

 

1 : devotee, admirer

2 : one who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession

3 : one lacking in experience and competence in an art or science

 

 

and even that is a later concept attatched to the word (Kurt Andersen of Studio 360 had an observation on that a few years ago where he cites a change in def in, I believe the American Heritage dictionary over the years)

 

--------

 

These concepts do tie into the "biz ops" discussion of earlier - "artist" as artist can have success merely by engaging in their art.

 

Financial compensation for work...well, then we are to the biz ops we were talking about

[edgerunner]

Here's how I would make the distinction:

Professional musician - one who makes a significant portion of their living (75% or more?) from playing music (recording or live) or writing/arranging music.

Semi-pro musician - one who may earn some significant money but it isn't their main source of income.

Amateur musician - one who plays music and may make some extra cash doing so but it really isn't significant and may barely cover their expenses.

To me - it says NOTHING about the QUALITY of their musicianship. There some KILLER good amateur and semi-pros that could blow "pros" and "rock stars" away. In theory a semi-pro or pro would have significantly better skills than amateurs - but it doesn't always work out that way.

To simple? Not accurate?

Chuck

[sabriel9v]

Here's how I would make the distinction: Professional musician - one who makes a significant portion of their living (75% or more?) from playing music (recording or live) or writing/arranging music. Semi-pro musician - one who may earn some significant money but it isn't their main source of income. Amateur musician - one who plays music and may make some extra cash doing so but it really isn't significant and may barely cover their expenses. To me - it says NOTHING about the QUALITY of their musicianship. There some KILLER good amateur and semi-pros that could blow "pros" and "rock stars" away. In theory a semi-pro or pro would have significantly better skills than amateurs - but it doesn't always work out that way. To simple? Not accurate? Chuck

Sounds good to me captain

[John Bartus]

Good call on the definitions. I totally agree that an amateur musician can have incredible talent and technique; they simply choose to earn their living in another field. Likewise, just because someone makes their living at music doesn't make them good. In my nearly 30 years making a living at this, I've run into some real sorry acts... including several that were actually faking playing their instruments onstage. Sequencing, computers, and backing tracks have turned more than a few live performance opportunities for actual musicians into nothing but glorified karaoke acts.

Before I get flamed, let me state that I'm not talking about real musicians who use sequencing as part of their legitimate act -- I'm referring to the ones who know nothing about music -- who couldn't tell the difference between a bass clef and a bass boat -- who show up, pop in the disc/disk, and it's showtime!

[Cygnus64]

Here's how I would make the distinction: Professional musician - one who makes a significant portion of their living (75% or more?) from playing music (recording or live) or writing/arranging music. Semi-pro musician - one who may earn some significant money but it isn't their main source of income. Amateur musician - one who plays music and may make some extra cash doing so but it really isn't significant and may barely cover their expenses. To me - it says NOTHING about the QUALITY of their musicianship. There some KILLER good amateur and semi-pros that could blow "pros" and "rock stars" away. In theory a semi-pro or pro would have significantly better skills than amateurs - but it doesn't always work out that way. To simple? Not accurate?

Its fine.
When I use the term "pro", it has two definitions:
1. Someone who makes their living as a musician
2. Someone with the skills, attitude, experience and professionalism required to be a musician.

[S.L.B.]

Hmmm... Maybe I need to get the f*** out of here and start making some money.

+1 I remember the days of making money. (Or should I say Decent Money.)

[SBF3000]

You make a great point. I actually posted this thread because in the last couple issues of my local paper, there have been some suspect articles about the music industry. It appears as if the writers are saying it's okay to cop out and jump on the "free music" band wagon. What do you think of this?

 

 

I enjoy reading your perspective on things first of all, can you contact the local media and initiate a point/counterpoint? some publicity, some people get informed at how A, B and C effect the local and broader music scenes negatively and/or positively. Just a thought.

[Deeprig9]

I already took care of that.

[sabriel9v]

I already took care of that.

[HKSblade1]

damn! I always got hit for remarks about No value in music. I said it will get to a point that nobody (consumers) will appreciate music as to the work involved in creating it.

 

Industry smhindustry! It's thieves and T word internet piracy that robs the creators. The creators have no recourse. Internet file (sharing?? Stealing?) has destroyed the value or appreciation (monetary) for musicians.

 

Free is the word. No mention of the illegality for a crime which it is, unless the band devalues itself enough to say "buy my stickers" PLEASE? They're only $1

Consumer: F that, I can get the music free.

 

It was a pain in the ass to copy a lp to cassette or cd. Internet music piracy does not have any safeguards to worry about. Unless you hit the unlucky lottery! The industry should have done more to compromise or prevent this. Not they could do much when FREE is the code word. Wouldn't matter if the industry said $5 downloads. Free means NO VALUE. Your WORK means ZIP

 

Concerts? where? How often? Yea REO with STYX and some other re born version at $85 a crack. Sold out? probably. From the ones who saw them 25 years ago that VALUED music. Software? that's another problem honest people pay extra for.

 

Industries like Entertainment, Music, Movie, and Software co's should get their creative minds assembled and host their won p2p seeded (with buggy nasty format your HDD and IPOD) files. They did one a few years ago. I'd like to see them go full pace! Imagine the hdd's needing reformatted ! Make it hard to find a good file, and it will have less DEMAND.

 

Start at the root of NO value. Piracy for one. F up those hdd's and ipods and see how many billions cry foul

 

They could track BW of users and make them pay like they do for extra text messages

 

Issue warnings and fines or loss of service for X weeks if they violate. Stop that crap first, then the value of music as work, movies as work, and software as work will go back to at least some value.

[Instrospection]

They could track BW of users and make them pay like they do for extra text messages

 

Yup, pay per byte. I sent SOCAN a message regarding this today, to help get their artists paid online for this sort of thing. It's a ways off, but the pay per byte thing--to upload or download things---is not far off. Because the thing is, I know that ZZ Top had to shut down NUMEROUS "ZZ Top" sites on MySpace, that were masquerading as the band's site.

 

They uploaded files that weren't theirs. Hell, I know a producer that had his own MySpace, apparently.....he had nothing to do with it! It had files of the bands that he worked with. Great promotion? Probably. But it was still people uploading content that wasn't theirs.

 

Eventually Nielsen BDS with their digital fingerprint will find a way to pay artists for who is viewing and trading their stuff. As a matter of fact, they've already made it easier to track on radio--it used to be that they'd take a random sampling from a period of time (ie: like "sweeps week" on TV) and then judge your compensation based on that period. Not anymore--the digital fingerprint tracks your exact plays. Radio ditched out of paying actual exact plays royalties for decades now, and it's only a matter of time before SOCAN, ASCAP and BMI go after ISP's to get their artists paid.

 

If they can track a prank phone call, they can certainly track who views what online.

[Poker99]

Sorry for the long post, but here goes... A lot of what I'm seeing here is about the distinction between being a professional musician vs. being an amateur one. Professionals operate at a higher standard than amateurs, and are compensated for the services they provide. Unless it's a benefit performance for a good cause, or there exists a real potential for career advancement, professional musicians don't play free shows. As professional musicians, we have limited products and services we can offer for compensation. Service = performance. Product = CDs, downloads, and merch sales. For a professional musician, or someone who claims to be one, to argue that giving their main products and services away for free in order to maximize t-shirt sales is absurd. If you can't get paid for a performance, or people won't buy your CDs or downloads, then maybe there's another issue... like you suck. Granted, there are certain things professional musicians can do for promotion, e.g., a free download or two to get fans to visit their websites and possibly purchase a CD or paid download. Same with low-cost freebies like bumper stickers that help spread a band's name. And places like Nashville operate under different rules--everyone's there to "make it," and it's likely that your waiter can outsing, outplay, and outwrite you. It's likely that most of the Nashville hopefuls knew what they were getting into before they went there. Otherwise, it can be a rude awakening. Let's also not forget that the music industry (at all levels) doesn't always attract the most honest and forthright people. Consider all the backstabbing musicians, weasel club owners/managers, crooked agents/managers/attorneys, and the majority of record label deals. With all the people who will rip you off in a heartbeat, why would anyone who considers himself a professional musician continue to just give away his products and services? Oh... 'cause you want to be a STAR. I get it. At 46, I know I'm one of the geezers around this forum. And I'm nowhere close to being a star with my full figure and receding hairline. But I have been a full-time professional musician since 1982. Rarely (if ever) has a year gone by that I didn't play at least 200 paid gigs, and that includes the six years I was a City Councilman and Mayor! I've recorded my music and the music of other local bands in my recording studio. I've produced countless jingles, spots, and broadcast music tracks. Over the last six years, I've sold over 5,000 CDs--mostly at gigs and some through CD Baby. I've had over 1,500 paid downloads through iTunes, Rhapsody, etc., and all that without really trying to promote online sales. Currently, I perform 2-3 nights a week solo for real money, and about 2 nights a week with my band, also for real money. And I still love what I do. So if accountability within the music industry is what you're after, the first person you have to be accountable to is yourself. If you have a talent and product you believe in, don't just give it away. Work on it, refine it, and make it something that people will pay for. My $0.02. YMMV.

How old is your crowd? Believe me you have to do miracles now to make kids pay for music. People your age have more respect.

[sabriel9v]

How old is your crowd? Believe me you have to do miracles now to make kids pay for music. People your age have more respect.

+10 I wouldn't say you have to work "miracles" to get people in our age group to buy albums, but it takes careful persuasion

[Poker99]

+10 I wouldn't say you have to work "miracles" to get people in our age group to buy albums, but it takes careful persuasion

Well... Yeah.

[John Bartus]

It's mostly people from 30-60 who buy the CDs, BUT: I do get my share of 20-somethings buying CDs. But what do I know -- chances are, they'll rip it for all their friends.

I've actually heard some people say that as they buy a CD -- "I'll buy this one, and I'll burn you all copies when we get back." Now THAT'S annoying.

[Poker99]

It's mostly people from 30-60 who buy the CDs, BUT: I do get my share of 20-somethings buying CDs. But what do I know -- chances are, they'll rip it for all their friends. I've actually heard some people say that as they buy a CD -- "I'll buy this one, and I'll burn you all copies when we get back." Now THAT'S annoying.

20-somethings and teens that buy CD have parents or older friends that buy them too. When that generation is gone, its over. The kids who have iPods with pirated music on it won't tell their kids to buy music ten or 20 years from now. It will be a thing of the past.

[germs]

Let me introduce a concept:

First, who here plays in a band that does SOME or ALL covers?

How do you learn those covers? Sure, you might own a few CD's, but I'll tell you here and now, I REFUSE to go out and purchase "Cracked Rear View" to learn "Let Her Cry" by Hootie and the Blowfish. What's more, as a "working musician" (defined as one who supplements earned income from a "traditional" job source with playing gigs) I don't own (can't afford) an iPod, mp3 player, or what have you. I STEAL single songs from file-sharing programs and use them as a learning tool.

Does that make me accountable for robbing Darius Rucker of
How much of that $$ does the major label artist receive anyway? If you have an iTunes account, like my band sure does, without label backing, you get approx. 0.79/download. Besides, there will always be a way to get around "safeguards". The technology is out there. It will not implode, barring some great act of God or something...

So, what do you do? It's already been said. If no one comes to your shows, and you've been playing gigs for like 6 months, you are not just "building a fanbase".

Wake up, idiot. Your band probably sucks. Get over it, get off the stage, it's not for everyone, or everyone WOULD be a {censored}ing rockstar. I only hope that the right people will get this message...

Or, we could start like a gestapo for musicians...I like the idea of putting sensitive, eco-friendly, pop-lite "musicians" into forced labor...

Too far?

[Cygnus64]

Wake up, idiot. Your band probably sucks. Get over it, get off the stage, it's not for everyone,

What's more, as a "working musician" (defined as one who supplements earned income from a "traditional" job source with playing gigs) I don't own (can't afford) an iPod, mp3 player, or what have you.

No offense, but if you are a "working musician" who cant afford an ipod, you are clearly doing something wrong.:lol:

[masterbuilt]

Nostalgic old guy bands featuring lame rock songs with boring lyrics with a 40 something year old front man who still thinks he can "make it". This refers to original bands only. --> This excludes bands making a living playing classic covers at events: respect.

 

 

So, are you saying that only young head-bangers and lightning fast guitarists are worthy of performing?

 

I admit, hearing the Cascades doing a newer version of "Listen to the Rhythm of the Falling Rain" is not my idea of great entertainment, there are lots of highly skilled forty-year-old musicians out there gigging and writing some excellent original tunes.

 

One thing that sucks about rock and roll is that attitude. Maybe your post did not mean to sound that way, but, you have basically dis'd every performer above forty.

 

Funny, in jazz and blues, in folk-rock and country-folk genres age adds respect and shows that people who write about life have actually lived it long enough to write about it from experience.

[masterbuilt]

Sorry for the long post, but here goes... A lot of what I'm seeing here is about the distinction between being a professional musician vs. being an amateur one. Professionals operate at a higher standard than amateurs, and are compensated for the services they provide. Unless it's a benefit performance for a good cause, or there exists a real potential for career advancement, professional musicians don't play free shows. As professional musicians, we have limited products and services we can offer for compensation. Service = performance. Product = CDs, downloads, and merch sales. For a professional musician, or someone who claims to be one, to argue that giving their main products and services away for free in order to maximize t-shirt sales is absurd. If you can't get paid for a performance, or people won't buy your CDs or downloads, then maybe there's another issue... like you suck. Granted, there are certain things professional musicians can do for promotion, e.g., a free download or two to get fans to visit their websites and possibly purchase a CD or paid download. Same with low-cost freebies like bumper stickers that help spread a band's name. And places like Nashville operate under different rules--everyone's there to "make it," and it's likely that your waiter can outsing, outplay, and outwrite you. It's likely that most of the Nashville hopefuls knew what they were getting into before they went there. Otherwise, it can be a rude awakening. Let's also not forget that the music industry (at all levels) doesn't always attract the most honest and forthright people. Consider all the backstabbing musicians, weasel club owners/managers, crooked agents/managers/attorneys, and the majority of record label deals. With all the people who will rip you off in a heartbeat, why would anyone who considers himself a professional musician continue to just give away his products and services? Oh... 'cause you want to be a STAR. I get it. At 46, I know I'm one of the geezers around this forum. And I'm nowhere close to being a star with my full figure and receding hairline. But I have been a full-time professional musician since 1982. Rarely (if ever) has a year gone by that I didn't play at least 200 paid gigs, and that includes the six years I was a City Councilman and Mayor! I've recorded my music and the music of other local bands in my recording studio. I've produced countless jingles, spots, and broadcast music tracks. Over the last six years, I've sold over 5,000 CDs--mostly at gigs and some through CD Baby. I've had over 1,500 paid downloads through iTunes, Rhapsody, etc., and all that without really trying to promote online sales. Currently, I perform 2-3 nights a week solo for real money, and about 2 nights a week with my band, also for real money. And I still love what I do. So if accountability within the music industry is what you're after, the first person you have to be accountable to is yourself. If you have a talent and product you believe in, don't just give it away. Work on it, refine it, and make it something that people will pay for. My $0.02. YMMV.

BRAVO!!!

I had to shout. That was a GREAT post!

[nerol1st]

So, are you saying that only young head-bangers and lightning fast guitarists are worthy of performing?

Sorry I should have been much MUCH more specific:

I'm talking mid life crisis dudes who tried the band thing years ago, failed and are now trying to make it playing the exact same stuff like magically we will go back to Glam rock or something (or anything else great about the past).

Obviously not all 40 something year olds are creating junk music. It wasn't meant to single out a single age group, sorry for the indication.

Here let me fetch you an example:

http://www.myspace.com/chestybeth

While not exactly what I had in mind it's close