Members Jeff da Weasel Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 however the mixmasterdeluxe never uses headphones, not for anything, because he knows that loudspeaker stereophony can not be listened to on headphones Loudspeakers don't listen to music. People do. Try a binaural mix, or drown in your self-righteousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 Friends, Read to page 95, loudspeaker stereophony. Then read from page 96 on, headphone stereophony (Binaural signal reproduction). http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/theile/Tutorial_TMT2006_website.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 Loudspeakers don't listen to music. People do. Try a binaural mix, or drown in your self-righteousness. and thank you for your stupid comment! totally unprofessional! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 I've never once claimed to be a professional at anything relating to music creation. But I do know how people listen to music, Angelo. You can't stop them from using phones. You can try, though, for my personal amusement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members N88 Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 I often have no choice but to use headphones, but I always check on monitors and other systems. I use Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro phones, and have tried most of the crossfeed adjustment programs over the last few years. I really like Isone Pro. It actually gives me a simulated soundstage I can work with. It's taking time to get used to it, just like monitors, but it's made a difference for me. Mixes are translating as I expect them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 I've never once claimed to be a professional at anything relating to music creation. But I do know how people listen to music, Angelo. You can't stop them from using phones. You can try, though, for my personal amusement. people can listen to music with whatever they like... but we talk about the basic principles of music production, such as recording, and particular mixing, Mr. Klopmeyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 oh, and there is no conversion process between the two fundamental recording and playback principles. When mixing with headphones, one does not even hear near what the signal represents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 people can listen to music with whatever they like... Including headphones. Wouldn't you like to have some idea of what they might be hearing? Or do you like it to be a fun little surprise after the recording is released? I like surprises, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted October 22, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 Wow, this seems to have really struck a nerve. Your comments are all very, very interesting. Personally, I also do what seems to be common - listen on headphones during the early stages to catch errors/issues, when every detail is exposed, then switch over to speakers later on as a reality check. This has nothing to do with people sleeping or neighbors; I could do the whole process on speakers if I wanted to. But, headphones are a great diagnostic tool. However...given that I travel and do videos for HC at hotel rooms, bringing monitor speakers isn't practical. Nor is it possible to optimize room acoustics beyond some really basic things, like taking off the bedspreads and hanging them, or drawing the drapes to minimize reflections off windows. As a result, there are some situations where I HAVE to mix on headphones. This has led me on a quest to find the best possible methodology for this type of mixing. One compensating factor is that I assume many people will listen to the HC videos over computer speakers, so I can run a reality check using my laptop speakers. However, they don't catch a lot of things, including p-popping so really, they're useful only to see if the amount of compression and general EQ is okay. I know what Rudolf means about the difference in stereo perception with headphones vs. speakers, and this presents one of the biggest traps when trying to mix on phones. However, just as you can "learn" a room or "learn" the deficiencies in a set of speakers, after enough A-B comparisons of what you hear on phones vs. what you hear on speakers, you start to know how to compensate. Keep those comments coming... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 Including headphones. Wouldn't you like to have some idea of what they might be hearing? Or do you like it to be a fun little surprise after the recording is released? I like surprises, too. if I would spend the time to listen to every production over the wrong playback system, then I would never come to an end. and when it sounds exellent on my high resolution monitoring, then it sounds good on any playback system, including headphones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 if I would spend the time to listen to every production over the wrong playback system, then I would never come to an end. You don't need to check every playback system. Three or four scenarios cover 95% of all possibilities. and when it sounds exellent on my high resolution monitoring, then it sounds good on any playback system, including headphones. That should be true. However, not everyone is privileged enough to have access to really excellent monitors that allow for mixes that translate to every playback system. Some folks can't afford them, and others find themselves in settings where listening at SPL levels appropriate for mixing isn't possible. In any case, I do prefer to give the phones a try when listening to a mix before it's unleashed on the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 I know what Rudolf means about the difference in stereo perception with headphones vs. speakers, and this presents one of the biggest traps when trying to mix on phones. However, just as you can "learn" a room or "learn" the deficiencies in a set of speakers, after enough A-B comparisons of what you hear on phones vs. what you hear on speakers, you start to know how to compensate.Keep those comments coming... Craig, Head related stereophony is a complete other phenomena then room related stereohony. When you work like you mention, then you must also define which headphone model is the reference, or it is almost an analogy to lesson #1 every recordist learns at day one: "Wer eine nat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rabid Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 One year ago I moved into a house. For 20 years before that I lived in apartments. Being a good neighbor I did most everything using headphones. That includes practicing piano on a RD and composing music. I had speakers but for me a good set of headphones cranked was better than the best monitors with the dial set to 1. As someone said, reference is important with headphones. But then, isn't it important for even the best studio monitors? I've heard the "you cannot mix with headphones" argument over and over. You know what, I'll take my mix over the squished CRAP mixes that most studios seem to shove onto the radio. I don't mix for loudness. I mix so that I can hear all the little things in the music. From all the complaints I hear on the forums about the current sound of music releases, why would I want to follow the "rules" for mixing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted October 22, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 From all the complaints I hear on the forums about the current sound of music releases, why would I want to follow the "rules" for mixing? I think a lot of the blame falls on the mastering engineers getting pressure from the clients rather than the mix engineers. I do feel that overly-compressed music sounds worse on headphones than on speakers, but that's just a subjective impression. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 and people who believe that room related stereophony can be perfectly mixed via headphones, should also believe that head related stereophony (artificial head recording), can be perfectly mixed on loudspeakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 I do feel that overly-compressed music sounds worse on headphones than on speakers, but that's just a subjective impression. that is a fact for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeff da Weasel Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 I do feel that overly-compressed music sounds worse on headphones than on speakers, but that's just a subjective impression. If it's subjective, count me in on that as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Synonym Music Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 I don't see anyone who believes that... Are we in the same thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 me neither...... no, we are not in the same thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kendrix Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 Im 90% on my monitors.However, like many home guys my room and monitors do not accurately reproduce the very low end.I check through my AT phones specifically to check the boom/mud factor in the very lowest octaves. Of course I listen to refernce material through both monitors and the phones to calibrate the sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rabid Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 I think the days of listeners buying expensive stereo systems and worrying about speaker placement in the listening room are over. Is "room related stereophony" the issue it was 30 years ago? I'd worry more about the stereo field from the car, the headphones, and the cheap iPod speaker systems. "Who are you mixing for" should be the first consideration. As someone that enjoys electronic music I envy those people who manage a great mix that can go from club to headphone. As a customer, I listen to most of my music though a set of M-Audio Studio Pro 4 monitors. That is what I have connected to my computer at work. While cheap, those are far better than what anyone else in this building uses. I bet there are fourty sets of computer speakers pumping pop and country music though single 2" drivers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Rudolf von Hagenwil Posted October 22, 2009 Members Share Posted October 22, 2009 Rabid, do you think along the same line with food? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hush Posted October 24, 2009 Members Share Posted October 24, 2009 I usually start on my Sennheiser hd600's, especially when making edits. Then move to Hr824s and then my Magneplanars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cooterbrown Posted October 24, 2009 Members Share Posted October 24, 2009 To me, the ultimate test would be to try it out your mix on the phones, the studio monitors, a high-end car stereo, a not-so high end car stereo, a boombox, an iPod running your track as a 128k mp3.Then try to strike a happy medium, somewhere, where it sounds good on everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted October 26, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 26, 2009 Hey all - with a little bit of editing, this would make a PERFECT "roundtable" section for my EQ article on mixing with headphones. I'll use your SSS handles unless you want me to use your real names. BTW as to what I have in for testing, so far Shure, A-T, Monster, and Ultrasone have signed up for sending products. I also have the Novation interface with VRM technology. I'm hoping to add Sony, AKG, and Sennheiser to the list of headphones for testing. Should be interesting...! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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