Members robertkoa Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 So -we've all seen tables and chairs bolted together that get wobbly and loose over time. I think Strats would be better if done as Set Neck so the guitar would age better over time instead of getting more loose and losing resonance. But until builders start making Set Neck Strats, do the threaded metal inserts and machine screws for the bolt joint increase resonance and prevent gradual loosening of the neck ? Is tone generally enhanced with more resonance and sustain ? It works with tires,(metal to metal contact) does it work with Strats ? No smart ass comments about tone of your tires (OK 1 comment ). Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 If your tires are making metal to metal contact, yer doing it wrong.. From a design perspective, I would say that threaded inserts would be superior wood screws.. From a musical perspective, I'd say it doesn't mean {censored} once it goes through an amp.. EDIT: And I wouldn't make a smart ass comment about tire tone.. My day job is ATV tire design, and I care a great deal about how loud and what pitch my tires have.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bubbluz Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 Strats are pretty much perfect the way they are,and age just fine.IMO There are these really neat things called screwdrivers. They assist you with screw tightening. :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members normh Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 Because a guitar is what it is, chasing a concept called tone is foolish at best. Mostly tone comes from the combination of amp setting, amp type, and the player. Chasing an endless supply of pickups will break you, even if you turn the pups. Sustain is not necessarily bad in a guitar, but it does not come from just how tight the neck is bolted in. You have numerous elements that contribute to the sustain. These elements range from the material the nut is made from, how heavy the bridge is, the body and neck materials, how tight the neck fits into its pocket, and often how loud and your location from the amplifier. Resonance comes from all of the above, except the amplifier elements. I come from the school that believes that a good hard nut from bone or brass (I dislike the sound of brass nuts), a heavy bridge, proper setup (if that include a shim, then a properly made shim whether hardwood or epoxy), the neck pocket fit, and the woods involved are the main contributors to sustain. The neck pocket fit is an important element of the resonance. How tight the pocket is mounted to the body is another important element. This is where the inserts come in. An insert, say in 10-32, allows you to install the neck a little (or a lot) tighter than a simple wood screw does. This is because for any given vertical distance, the horizontal or rotational distance is much greater in a machine screw than a wood screw. In other words you have to turn a machine screw much more than a wood screw and it can be torqued much more without stripping the wood. This contributes to a much tighter body/neck coupling, but only if the neck properly fits into the pocket. If your neck fits sloppily or loosely into the body pocket, then you would have a greater effect by side shimming the body pocket than you would by installing inserts. By a tight neck pocket I mean tight enough that you can remove the screws and lift the body with the neck or that you have to apply force to separate the body and neck. I prefer a fit such that I have to press the neck in with a C clamp. The other common use for inserts is if you travel a lot and remove the neck for convenience, or as Customtele does in switching the same neck between two bodies. Frankly, I don't like Customtele's idea because the pocket will loosen with enough removals - but his guitars, his choice. These are all elements of tuning the guitar - not the guitar strings. Finally, anything I have written is arguable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bubbluz Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 Finally, anything I have written is arguable. IS NOT !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 Is TOO!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bubbluz Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 OH ,It's on now !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 Nah, I surrender.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bubbluz Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 Good...I'm sleepy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DaleH Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 How much sustain do you need. I think moat modern pickups and amps produce more than enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members normh Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 Enough to carry G on the E string through the lyrics in "Black Dog." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RaVenCAD Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 How much sustain do you need. I think moat modern pickups and amps produce more than enough. 3 hours ago, I plucked the low E string on my Carvin CT4, which is a set-neck mahogany/maple guitar, much like a Les Paul.. That sombitch is STILL RINGING! True story, I wouldn't make something like that up.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EADGBE Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 None of my bolt-ons are loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cratz2 Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 I always thought the nut was another weak point. all this torque at the pocket, yet the nut is sitting on a layer of energy sapping glue. and lastly the claw screws on trems. this seems like another weak point. I always thought that maybe threaded inserts or some other method could be improved here. A lot of folks mention tone when talking of brass or steel nuts, but I always thought it 'should' add some amount of sustain, specifically because it excludes the glue layer. No idea if that is true in reality, but it's one of those things that has always seem to make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members normh Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 3 hours ago, I plucked the low E string on my Carvin CT4, which is a set-neck mahogany/maple guitar, much like a Les Paul.. That sombitch is STILL RINGING! True story, I wouldn't make something like that up.. Ditto with an Ibanez model 2613. Plucked the string, was called away on an emergency, set the guitar in its stand in front of the amp speaker, came back several hours and the string was still ringing. This is why I tossed in the amp equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members normh Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 I always thought the nut was another weak point. all this torque at the pocket, yet the nut is sitting on a layer of energy sapping glue. On a properly glued nut, the nut is not sitting on a layer of glue. There are maybe two drops of glue holding the front of the nut to the fret board and not the neck, so that the nut is actually sitting on wood. Many luthiers like to use CA for this, I prefer simple Elmer's white glue and will gladly re-glue a nut if it works loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ugameus Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 On a properly glued nut, the nut is not sitting on a layer of glue. There are maybe two drops of glue holding the front of the nut to the fret board and not the neck, so that the nut is actually sitting on wood.Many luthiers like to use CA for this, I prefer simple Elmer's white glue and will gladly re-glue a nut if it works loose. interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Belva Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 BTW I'm only swapping necks right now because I can't afford the bucks to get another one just like my fave. And it aint one that you can get off the shelf. It's a USACG 24&3/4" scale conversion made to my specs. And yes you're right. The neck pockets will loosen up if I don't soon get back to work or find a rich girl to marry. I did put in the threaded inserts after 3 swaps. The holes in the neck started to get loose. I've swapped that neck back & forth half a dozen times and still no problems with the inserts. Words of advice if you decide to do this. Don't buy that expensive kit. Get 8/32 threaded inserts, steel if you can. Lowe's has SS bolts with the oval head. Also get some 8/32 nuts to make your installation tool. Jam one against the other on your machine screw. Then drill your holes to 5/16" instead of 1/4". Maple is too hard to move easily. Then epoxy the inserts in place with a small piece of tape over the end of the insert to keep the epoxy out of the threads.I also don't glue my nuts in on my strat type necks. I'll find a piece of bone thicker than the slot and file it down until it fits snug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BG76 Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/directcoup.htm ^ You saw it there first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members normh Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 Hey Tele, you are a luthier, or at least a tech. Why not carve one? It is a learning experience. While pine is harder to carve than many hardwoods, I would suggest you start there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Belva Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 I'm a novice tech making a bit of extra $ fixing guitars. I do have a piece of tiger maple that would make a nice neck. I don't have a way to route a truss rod channel, but I could probably make something. I am giving it some thought. I don't have spoke shaves and other tools needed though and that may cost as much as a neck from USACG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members normh Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 Please do not start with the Tiger Maple. You can get an inexpensive spokeshave from Harbor Fright. You'll laugh or cry, I cut my truss channels and pup routes with a chisel, my roughed out pieces with a coping saw. drill my holes with a hand drill, and only use a dremel to buff the frets. It looks funny seeing a guy sitting on the floor barefoot and holding fit with his feet while carving on it. But then, I am Abbynormal, or am I just man. Having LMII cut and slot my fret boards is an experiment. And yeah, yeah, I beat my head on walls too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WildWill Posted February 7, 2010 Members Share Posted February 7, 2010 http://www.edroman.com/techarticles/directcoup.htm ^ You saw it there first. Well, actually I think I saw it first on a Crook Tele. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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