Members Mr_GoodBomb Posted July 21, 2010 Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 I sold a telecaster body for $125 plus $15 shipping. I took pictures just before listing it. The body was pristine. It was packaged very well, but the buyer didn't want, or pay for, insurance. It arrived with dings, and the seller is furious and unreasonable. It's cosmetic damage, he paid FAR less than I expected to get for the body, but he's still outraged. He wants a full refund. I asked to see pictures of the damage he claims to. He didn't provide any. I offered a refund of the purchase price in exchange for pictures of the damage and the body returned (essentially, a return). He's escalated the claim and not responded to my requests. I know Ebay tends to side with bidders and not offer much for sellers. What can be done? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Guitar Heel Posted July 21, 2010 Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 I really, really hate buyers sometimes. Respond to the claim, letting eBay know that the buyer did not opt for insurance, and that he refused to send pics of the damaged item. That's at least a start... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bun-Bun Posted July 21, 2010 Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 This is why I have stopped selling online. Sold a computer monitor. It got over the border, customs phoned the buyer to ask about payment for the duty and what not, buyer refused shipment and then put the blame on me for not "informing" him about the additional "shipping fees" i.e. customs fees/duty etc.Accused me of bait and switch... Paypal went in his favor. I lost out on the $60 shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr_GoodBomb Posted July 21, 2010 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 I offered it to all of the other bidders who had bid against him before he won the bid. One of them went so far as to say "people are idiots," "used is used," and "you could easily sell it for more to someone else." But he had already bought another after being outbid. Too bad the winning bidder doesn't see it that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members super56k Posted July 21, 2010 Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 In a proper world ebay should hold off on a refund until pictures are provided, but in reality get ready for a refund against you and hopefully you get your item back ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bisticles Posted July 21, 2010 Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 More than likely, nothing else is going to happen and the claim will expire. You're doing everything right, just stay consistent. eBay definitely sides with the buyer, but usually not unreasonably. Sometimes packages *do* get jacked up in transit, and the buyer *is* rightfully angry, but refusing to provide pictures means that they're not working with you. You don't want the body back at this point, because he'll definitely ding it up before sending it back. But don't worry about that, because he'll likely also refuse to pay for shipping to return it, which eBay requires. Just wait it out, and don't agree to "pay for the damage" or anything like that. This is a well-known trick, and I get at least 2 of them a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr_GoodBomb Posted July 21, 2010 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 Do you also get negative feedback? My feedback is perfect, which... I guess, vs $140 bucks, I could stand... However, the body is my bandmates' and I had listed it, and the rest of the guitar worth of parts, for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members steve_man Posted July 21, 2010 Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 I would tell him to send pictures, or forget about it. And...I would withdraw the money from my paypal account asap... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fulcrumpoint Posted July 21, 2010 Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 If you lose the paypal/ebay claim....Go after UPS. I had to go through something similar situation fortunately the buyer was a little more cooperative. File a Damaged goods claim with UPS. UPS were more than helpful. It was a lengthy process but in the end I was taken care of for their negligence. Unfortunately, he will probably not have to prove the damage, and you will probably get thrown under the bus. But this is at least an option for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr_GoodBomb Posted July 21, 2010 Author Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 I would tell him to send pictures, or forget about it. And...I would withdraw the money from my paypal account asap... I've got like $2500 in there right now, and if you don't have any money, it yanks it from your bank account. Unless they paid for it with a debit card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wyatt Posted July 21, 2010 Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 eBay/Paypal isn't going to give a damn about pictures. Their system really isn't set up for that much information. They rely on statements and pretty much have a cheat sheet to decide if refund is given. Preempt it. There really is no great way to fight this, just make sure you get the item back and write it off as a jackass. I would tell them you will happy give refund *when* item is returned. Both claims I've had to file as a buyer required proof of delivery of the return and word from the seller before they would do the refund. When he sends it back, he has to enter the shipping number, and he if doesn't supply a shipping number before his window of opportunity closes, they close the claim. Since return shipping is at his cost, if he's scamming he may just decide to quit right there.. Call them in person where you can talk to them and make sure everything is clear. Honestly, postal insurance has proven near worthless to me. Unless it's dirt cheap, they'll require the item to be shipped to St. Louis where it will sit for months until the deny the claim because of "inadequate packaging" or something. Get the item back and get Paypal to nullify the auction and give you your fees back and relist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ashasha Posted July 21, 2010 Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 eBay/Paypal isn't going to give a damn about pictures. Their system really isn't set up for that much information. They rely on statements and pretty much have a cheat sheet to decide if refund is given.Preempt it. There really is no great way to fight this, just make sure you get the item back and write it off as a jackass. I would tell them you will happy give refund *when* item is returned. Both claims I've had to file as a buyer required proof of delivery of the return and word from the seller before they would do the refund. When he sends it back, he has to enter the shipping number, and he if doesn't supply a shipping number before his window of opportunity closes, they close the claim.Call them in person where you can talk to them and make sure everything is clear.Honestly, postal insurance has proven near worthless to me. Unless it's dirt cheap, they'll require the item to be shipped to St. Louis where it will sit for months until the deny the claim because of "inadequate packaging" or something.Get the item back and get Paypal to nullify the auction and give you your fees back and relist.This is exactly what I would do and for the same exact reasons. Get the item back and refund it because anything else is probably going to end up with you coming out on the short end of the stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bisticles Posted July 21, 2010 Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 Do you also get negative feedback? My feedback is perfect, which... I guess, vs $140 bucks, I could stand... However, the body is my bandmates' and I had listed it, and the rest of the guitar worth of parts, for him. Over ten years on eBay, and I've only gotten two negative feedbacks. One turned into a neutral once the buyer disappeared from eBay a few weeks later, and another one got pulled because the buyer resorted to namecalling, which eBay frowns upon. While uncommon, damaged/not as described claims happen. My personal policy is to send at least one email asking for a description and/or pictures of the problem/damage. If they take the five minutes to assure me that yes, they plugged it in correctly, yes, made sure that the volume is set right, or can send me pictures of something that looks like normal damage, I'll either offer to pay for return shipping or figure out a refund amount to make things right. If they won't do their part, or I think they just got yelled at by their wife for buying toys, standard eBay policy holds; buyer pays return shipping. You've just got to be consistent, and maintain a polite tone while sticking to your guns. But just know that there *are* people who make a habit out of gaming an extra $20 or so out of purchases by needling the seller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jhorne Posted July 21, 2010 Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 Did you bother to read the policy on PayPal's site? It covers all of this in pretty good detail if you take the time to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EJStrat2Tone Posted July 21, 2010 Members Share Posted July 21, 2010 Factor in all the frustration and time and effort to pack and wait for the $$ to come thru paypal. Then consider a lower price on Craigslist. One that really will make people call. Make sure you meet them in a highly visible area like a Dept. Store parking lot. If a lot of $$ changes hands bring a friend then buy him or her lunch. Ebay and Amazon these days will nearly always side with the buyer. You may get a better price but you have a tremendous unknown in the buyer. Every retailer gets ripped off. They take that into account as part of being in business unfortunately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr_GoodBomb Posted July 22, 2010 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2010 Factor in all the frustration and time and effort to pack and wait for the $$ to come thru paypal. Then consider a lower price on Craigslist. One that really will make people call.Make sure you meet them in a highly visible area like a Dept. Store parking lot. If a lot of $$ changes hands bring a friend then buy him or her lunch.Ebay and Amazon these days will nearly always side with the buyer. You may get a better price but you have a tremendous unknown in the buyer.Every retailer gets ripped off. They take that into account as part of being in business unfortunately. Local Craigslist is bogus. There are maybe 5 musical instruments listed every 2 weeks, and they're generally beginner's junk at retail prices. Selling things there just doesn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EADGBE Posted July 22, 2010 Members Share Posted July 22, 2010 Did you ship via UPS? If so make them pay. It sounds like the guy is a whiner though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mr_GoodBomb Posted July 22, 2010 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2010 USPS. Yeah, the guy paid next to nothing for the body, and didn't want insurance. It got a few cosmetic dings, and now he'd "never of paid that much for something in this condition!" Used is used. If I get something that's in cosmetically better condition than I expected, that's fantastic. But if I paid a cheap price and the condition wasn't key to the price I paid (which, at a cheap price, it wouldn't be), and it's got cosmetic dings... Who gives a {censored}? I'm not going to tell a seller his return policy isn't good enough, in all caps, and start a {censored}storm via Ebay. From what I'm seeing, USPS insurance is bull{censored}. They take your package, they accept it's packaging, and they accept it for insurance and take your cash for said insurance (which can get pretty pricey), but they're not responsible for having inspected to be sure it was VALID to be insured. Generally, they don't end up honoring insurance claims, and decide that the item shipped was not packaged well enough to qualify. Even if they do honor it, it's rarely for the full value. That's {censored}ing bull{censored} to me. It's like insuring a car that didn't pass inspection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gsh68 Posted July 22, 2010 Members Share Posted July 22, 2010 Ebay/Paypal will quite rightly ignore the fact that the buyer did not pay for insurance. Insurance is for the protection of the seller, not the buyer. It is the seller's responsibility to ensure that the purchased item arrives with the buyer in the condition it was sent. You should include insurance in your shipping costs and not give buyer a choice. If the body really was damaged in transit, it shouldn't matter how much the buyer paid, or if it was a bargain - he did not receive what he purchased - your words "The body was pristine." He is right to be upset, and fully entitled to a refund if that is what he wants. You have made the correct offer to refund upon return. His providing pictures isn't really worth it - if it is not actually damaged and he has just changed his mind, he may damage it for the pictures. Better to have him return it and hope it actually is in good condition. Paypal will most likely not demand pictures of the damage anyway - they tend to take the buyer's word in "significantly not as described" claims. If you have responded to the claim stating you will refund upon return, they will simply tell the buyer to return it. You may get lucky and convince Paypal to make the buyer provide proof of the damage, however I feel that is unlikely. The buyer will have to pay for return delivery (Paypal will not insist that you reimburse them) and will automatically refund the buyer when they provide proof that you have received the returned item if you have not already processed the refund. They will refund all costs - purchase and shipping, and you will be credited your final value fees. You are going to be out initial shipping costs. On the other hand, there are reports that on occasion Paypal refunds the buyer "in good faith" without taking the money back from the seller. Cross your fingers and hope that you are the lucky recipient of Paypal's largesse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members docrock55 Posted July 22, 2010 Members Share Posted July 22, 2010 " Insurance is for the protection of the seller, not the buyer. It is the seller's responsibility to ensure that the purchased item arrives with the buyer in the condition it was sent. You should include insurance in your shipping costs and not give buyer a choice."Exactly. ALWAYS build in Insurance to your shipping costs. I have done almost 1000 shipments via FED EX, and USPS, without Issue. The one time I did have to file a claim, Fed Ex had it resolved in 5 days. Shipping anything without Insurance, is like having sex with a hooker, and not using a condom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bun-Bun Posted July 22, 2010 Members Share Posted July 22, 2010 Just to add to the last post as it was unclear on this point. Paypal will refund the buyer in full including shipping. It is complete BS. The best you can hope for is to get the body back in the same condition in which it was sent out as and be out the shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GibsonQC Posted July 22, 2010 Members Share Posted July 22, 2010 " Insurance is for the protection of the seller, not the buyer. It is the seller's responsibility to ensure that the purchased item arrives with the buyer in the condition it was sent. You should include insurance in your shipping costs and not give buyer a choice." Exactly. ALWAYS build in Insurance to your shipping costs. I have done almost 1000 shipments via FED EX, and USPS, without Issue. The one time I did have to file a claim, Fed Ex had it resolved in 5 days. Shipping anything without Insurance, is like having sex with a hooker, and not using a condom. THIS. 100% ...and use FedEx. Insurance on expensive items through USPS will cost you a HUGE percentage. FedEx (Ground/Home) insurance is much more reasonable. Pack as if you were sending your item into a battlefield...or, as if you were sending it to yourself. But, since you are on the defensive with this buyer, I would: 1) Remove my $$ from Paypal 2) Call Paypal and file a claim against the buyer. CALL, don't do it on line. Their actual claims people are pretty cool. If the claim has been ported over from e-bay, verbally tell the Paypal people your situation. Make sure to explain HOW LONG you've been a member of Paypal and how often you use their service. Paypal's claims department has a toll-free number: (866) 775-7892 3) Make sure to tell the paypal claims dept that you offered the buyer a full refund IF he returns the item to you in it's original condition. 4) Make sure you have all necessary info when you call them (original tracking number, auction #, price paid, etc)--including any e-mail correspondence between you & him. From now on, correspond ONLY on paypal. He will try to e-mail you on the side--don't answer any of his e-mails on the side--only answer THROUGH the claims service/process. Don't complain about how much he got the item for. That is the luck of the draw. Instead, focus on the fact that you offered him a full refund if he would just return the body. That will put HIM on the defensive and leave the ball in his court. If he does nothing within 10 days, the case will most likely be closed. Don't worry about your feedback at this point. No matter what happens, he's going to do the same thing. Once you WIN the case, you can file a petition with e-bay to have the feedback removed, although that is usually more difficult. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bun-Bun Posted July 22, 2010 Members Share Posted July 22, 2010 More like 30 days but yeah. I agree with calling paypal directly. I called them too late on mine and had they heard more clearly my side of the story they may have gone in my favor. As they thought the buyer was talking about additional shipping costs where it fact it was custom fees. (I already had the monitor back I just didn't want them to refund the shipping, I had already refunded the full amount less shipping) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members EJStrat2Tone Posted July 22, 2010 Members Share Posted July 22, 2010 Local Craigslist is bogus. There are maybe 5 musical instruments listed every 2 weeks, and they're generally beginner's junk at retail prices. Selling things there just doesn't happen. Not in Los Angeles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GibsonQC Posted July 22, 2010 Members Share Posted July 22, 2010 More like 30 days but yeah. I agree with calling paypal directly. I called them too late on mine and had they heard more clearly my side of the story they may have gone in my favor. As they thought the buyer was talking about additional shipping costs where it fact it was custom fees. (I already had the monitor back I just didn't want them to refund the shipping, I had already refunded the full amount less shipping) I think e-bay's process is 30 days, but I'm not sure. I filed a Paypal claim 2 weeks ago with a seller who sent me counterfeit software. He didn't respond... 10 days later, Paypal credited my account. So, I guess 10 days was "best case scenario" if the other party chooses not to respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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