Members Lee Flier Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 OK, so I'm starting to put together specs for a new PC for my DAW. I can build it myself no problem, just want to find the right components. I'll be installing Windows 7 64-bit on this beast, and Reaper as my DAW software, so I don't need to worry about Pro Tools compatibility or anything like that. Keep in mind that: 1) I don't need, or want to spend the money for, the latest and greatest bleeding edge mobo/processor. I don't really stress my CPU with the kind of DAW usage I do - no ridiculously high track counts (I rarely exceed 24), not a ton of plugins, etc. And Reaper itself is great on resource use. On the rare occasions that I run virtual instruments, I can run them on a separate computer. 2) Stability and low latency are the most important things to me, as well as controlling heat and fan noise. So, what would you guys recommend in terms of "best bang for the buck" for: - processor- mobo- case- cooling device(s)- graphics card (I'd like to get a good quality graphics card, although again I don't need the absolute latest and greatest - we'll be doing Second Life broadcasts from this machine and things like that)- hard drive/RAID/backup/redundancy system Would appreciate any input! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted March 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 Also... how well do laptops perform as DAWs these days? Assuming I can get one reasonably priced, it'd be nice to have a laptop-based DAW so I can do remote recordings, if possible. I've used my current HP laptop to do very minimal field records (no more than 4 tracks at a time) but for some reason, I'm leery of using it as a full time DAW. It would, however, be wonderful if I could. So, recommendations for a suitable laptop and good backup/redundancy solutions would be nice too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ggm1960 Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 If I were still using PCs for recording I'd probably be switching to a laptop as well. What I would most likely do is go to the Dell website and select the components I thought gave me the best price/performance, have them put it together and ship it to me. At this point I'd probably expect to have an i7 processor. What I don't know is if you could get firewire though, perhaps that new light pipe is available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted March 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 Yeah, I would need Firewire - my current laptop has it, but I don't know if it's quite beefy enough for DAW work... I should probably just try it. Maybe just putting some more RAM in it would do fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shades990 Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 My job revolves around computers, and frankly I feel like computers have hit a 'standing point'. The newest processors and RAM busses are great, sure, but the ones from four years ago are still cutting it if you make sure they are maxed out with RAM. I love Dell though. If mine had a firewire port, I would be set! Go ahead and up your RAM though, that can never hurt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 Yeah, I would need Firewire - my current laptop has it, but I don't know if it's quite beefy enough for DAW work... I should probably just try it. Maybe just putting some more RAM in it would do fine. If it can handle 64 bits, then why not? As you've hinted, RAM is the secret of good laptop performance with DAWs given your relatively modest requirements. If you have a card slot for ExpressCard or whatever, you could add a FireWire card and possibly get better improvement, or be able to run multiple peripherals. Just remember to turn off your wireless card when doing DAW work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 My job revolves around computers, and frankly I feel like computers have hit a 'standing point'. The newest processors and RAM busses are great, sure, but the ones from four years ago are still cutting it if you make sure they are maxed out with RAM. I know where you're coming from, but having just gone over to 64-bit Windows 7 for most of my work, I have to say that breaking the 4GB limit is really helpful with virtual instruments and such. Also multicore computers are fabulous. But, I'm doing things like running complex projects in Sonar while Sony Vegas is open and I'm doing screen captures with Camtasia, so my requirements are not the norm. Still, it's great to have a computer that just does what I want it to do and never complains. I've owned Rain and ADK computers, and they were excellent (in fact I still use the Rain laptop, and the ADK is part of my network). I'm currently running a PC Audio Labs 8-core desktop and it has been an absolute dream. That extra power isn't something you need every day, but when you do it totally rocks. For example, I have 64-bit Vista on my PCAL laptop and can have multiple instances of Vegas open, so I can be editing on one while rendering on another. I could never have done that using a 32-bit system with a couple GB of RAM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted March 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 If it can handle 64 bits, then why not? As you've hinted, RAM is the secret of good laptop performance with DAWs given your relatively modest requirements. If you have a card slot for ExpressCard or whatever, you could add a FireWire card and possibly get better improvement, or be able to run multiple peripherals. It's already got 4GB of RAM, and it's a dual core AMD Turion. I do have an ExpressCard slot, although there's already built in FireWire. For the time being, like you say I don't need to get too crazy with specs. I'm not doing the kind of hardcore stuff you do (actually I do more of that in my programming work and this machine works fine for that). The main thing I wonder about is the hard drive. It's a 7200RPM SATA, but there's only one drive, and I'm unsure whether it can support another one internally. What do you laptop DAW-warriors use for HDDs, and what about backup/redundancy? I guess I shouldn't be so worried given that my Yamaha AW4416 takes a laptop drive, a 5200-RPM one at that, and still had no trouble recording lots of tracks simultaneously. But for some reason it seems like it wouldn't be adequate. I could probably get by with this machine at least for a little while... and maybe I could get a docking station for it which would make it easier to connect external devices... I know they exist for HPs. I can see how the overall setup works and then get another laptop or desktop later, if I determine that I really need it. Just remember to turn off your wireless card when doing DAW work Oh yeah, that goes without saying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 The main thing I wonder about is the hard drive. It's a 7200RPM SATA, but there's only one drive, and I'm unsure whether it can support another one internally. What do you laptop DAW-warriors use for HDDs, and what about backup/redundancy? I just have an external FW drive. For my Ableton Live sets, I put everything on a USB stick and play back off of that. I can record about 12-16 simultaneous tracks to a fast USB stick (as you know, they're not all created equal). Unless you need to record a lot of tracks at once, I bet you'd dig an 80GB solid-state drive - quiet, not too expensive, and you can drop it (not that I recommend that). But hey, try a fast USB stick and try recording to that. It might be all you need! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 I think we should appoint you the "Official SSS Laptop Recording Goddess" so you can report back to us on what works and what doesn't. I'd bet a lot of people are facing the same decision as you are right about now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted March 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 I just have an external FW drive. For my Ableton Live sets, I put everything on a USB stick and play back off of that. I can record about 12-16 simultaneous tracks to a fast USB stick (as you know, they're not all created equal). Unless you need to record a lot of tracks at once, I bet you'd dig an 80GB solid-state drive - quiet, not too expensive, and you can drop it (not that I recommend that). But hey, try a fast USB stick and try recording to that. It might be all you need! Hmmm... I must admit I hadn't even considered that. And I never have to record more than 16 tracks at a time. What would you consider a "fast" USB stick? I know they're not all created equal but, to be honest, I've never really researched the differences as speed has never mattered a whole lot, for the applications I've used USB sticks to this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted March 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 I think we should appoint you the "Official SSS Laptop Recording Goddess" so you can report back to us on what works and what doesn't. I'd bet a lot of people are facing the same decision as you are right about now. Yeah, I am really kinda into this experiment now. Think I'm going to pick up a Mackie Blackbird interface and see how it all comes together... I don't have to record anything really critical for the next couple of months, so it's a good time to check this out. I'm also really wondering about latency during overdubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shades990 Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 I know where you're coming from, but having just gone over to 64-bit Windows 7 for most of my work, I have to say that breaking the 4GB limit is really helpful with virtual instruments and such.Also multicore computers are fabulous. But, I'm doing things like running complex projects in Sonar while Sony Vegas is open and I'm doing screen captures with Camtasia, so my requirements are not the norm. Still, it's great to have a computer that just does what I want it to do and never complains. I've owned Rain and ADK computers, and they were excellent (in fact I still use the Rain laptop, and the ADK is part of my network). I'm currently running a PC Audio Labs 8-core desktop and it has been an absolute dream.That extra power isn't something you need every day, but when you do it totally rocks. For example, I have 64-bit Vista on my PCAL laptop and can have multiple instances of Vegas open, so I can be editing on one while rendering on another. I could never have done that using a 32-bit system with a couple GB of RAM.Sounds fun, guy. I can't wait to get a beater desktop to use for Netflix in the living room and get my quad-core up and running for recording. My laptop cuts it right now, but who knows... if money is ever an issue though, maxing out RAM never hurts. It is kind of fun to put together 12-core Mac Pros on the Apple site and watch them hit $16000 in price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alndln2 Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 If you have a card slot for ExpressCard or whatever, you could add a FireWire card. Word of caution here. Almost all current PC laptops express card slot are controlled by the crappy Micron Controller Chipset which will overide any FW card with a TI chipset and result in worse than bad performance. A good friend of mine went throgh 6 name brand current PC laptops before giving up and going USB. We tried getting a PreSonus FireStudio Project, a PreSonus FireBox and a Focusrite Saffire with 2 different SIIG TI based express cards. No dice at all. If I were considering a Latop for DAW I'd either get a Mac Pro, or a custom built DAW from a DAW builder, or wait for a Laptop with ThunderBolt, or look for an older used PC laptop that play's nice with express cards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LRon Butterfly Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 I've had good luck with Sonica (now owned by ADK). http://www.shop-sonica.com/d2500.cfm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 What would you consider a "fast" USB stick? I know they're not all created equal but, to be honest, I've never really researched the differences as speed has never mattered a whole lot, for the applications I've used USB sticks to this point. Well, first you have to get a USB 2.0 stick. It's not always clear from the packaging. Then you have to use a 2.0 USB port of course, but I've found that with many laptops, there will be a mix of USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 ports. Why they're all not just USB 2.0 I have no idea, but that seems to be the reality. Once you have 2.0 stick with 2.0 port you're pretty much okay. However, I have several 2.0 sticks here and my totally unscientific test is to time how long it takes to write something like a 4GB file and see what happens. The one that writes fastest wins I did a whole bunch of research on solid-state recording a year or two ago, I'll have to dredge that up and post it here. Apparently different manufacturers have slightly different ways of writing to flash - it made my head explode at the time, but the take away I got was that unless you're recording a sh*tload of tracks, there wasn't too much to worry about. The absolute coolest USB application for me is Ableton Live on a laptop. I convert all the clips to Disk clips, then tell them the USB stick is a disk. So they stream from that, and in the process, use NO system RAM and don't need to access the C: drive. The same thing works great with sample-based virtual instruments, you just put your sample library on the USB stick, and tell the instruments the USB stick is the drive they're supposed to stream from. Of course that won't work for Omnisphere's 40GB library (at least I haven't seen any 64GB USB drives at my local Office Depot, but they're probably out there somewhere, right?), although many VI libraries fit in an 8 or 16GB stick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 Word of caution here. Almost all current PC laptops express card slot are controlled by the crappy Micron Controller Chipset which will overide any FW card with a TI chipset and result in worse than bad performance. A good friend of mine went throgh 6 name brand current PC laptops before giving up and going USB. We tried getting a PreSonus FireStudio Project, a PreSonus FireBox and a Focusrite Saffire with 2 different SIIG TI based express cards. No dice at all. If I were considering a Latop for DAW I'd either get a Mac Pro, or a custom built DAW from a DAW builder, or wait for a Laptop with ThunderBolt, or look for an older used PC laptop that play's nice with express cards. Wow, I didn't know that...so I'm glad I followed your advice (bolded in your quote). Actually my laptop is from PC Audio Labs too, I asked them to integrate a 64-bit laptop for doing videos...they said they don't do video computers, and I said "Sure you do, it's just like your audio stuff but nastier." They were good sports about it and put together what they thought would be a good laptop for video, and I must say, they hit the target. It doesn't have FireWire, so I have to use the Expresscard slot. I had problems at first (clicks and pops in FW audio devices) until I went into the power adjustment option in Vista and made a power profile where the CPU couldn't switch between high- and low-power states; I set both states to 100%. That solved it, although I use that option only when running on AC power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alndln2 Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 Actually my laptop is from PC Audio Labs too. PC DAW builders like that (ADK etc.) get custom frames, boards and even custom bios ordered for their custom built laptops. Current off the shelf PC laptops not only suffer from the expresscard problem, but overcrowded buses as well. Even ones that work with USB usually suffer from bad to passable DPC latencey scores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted March 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 Well, first you have to get a USB 2.0 stick. It's not always clear from the packaging. Then you have to use a 2.0 USB port of course, but I've found that with many laptops, there will be a mix of USB 1.1 and USB 2.0 ports. Why they're all not just USB 2.0 I have no idea, but that seems to be the reality. Once you have 2.0 stick with 2.0 port you're pretty much okay. OK. I had a hard time even finding a USB 1.1 stick on Newegg. Most of them now seem to be 3.0 and backward compatible to 2.0, and user reviews are saying the compatibility works perfectly. My laptop does have a 2.0 port, that much I do know. So if I'm happy with using a stick as my recording drive, I'll just wait till next year to get a new laptop, when everything will have USB 3.0 ports. I did a whole bunch of research on solid-state recording a year or two ago, I'll have to dredge that up and post it here. Apparently different manufacturers have slightly different ways of writing to flash - it made my head explode at the time, but the take away I got was that unless you're recording a sh*tload of tracks, there wasn't too much to worry about. OK, good. I vaguely remember that post. (at least I haven't seen any 64GB USB drives at my local Office Depot, but they're probably out there somewhere, right?), Oh yeah. There are even 128 and (if you wanna pay an arm and a leg) 256GB ones! I think I'm gonna get one of these: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=20-220-553 Looks pretty badass, and I can use it for plenty else besides recording, even if this experiment doesn't work out too well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted March 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 I've had good luck with Sonica (now owned by ADK). http://www.shop-sonica.com/d2500.cfm Wow, that looks impressive. A little pricier than I'd like, but if I do decide to make a laptop my full time DAW, might be worth it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 Looks pretty badass, and I can use it for plenty else besides recording, even if this experiment doesn't work out too well. But you will let us know the results of said experiments, right? BTW I did forget to mention one catch - I have run into a couple programs that, for whatever reason, wouldn't let me specify a USB stick as the default drive for recording...IIRC Sound Forge 9 was one such program. Haven't tried it with Sound Forge 10. Also, there's DEFINITELY not enough bandwidth on a USB stick to stream video to it from a camcorder, I tried I don't think it matters to you, but I mention it for the sake of fellow vidiots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BushmasterM4 Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 Gigabyte and DFI are rock solid boards that use great components. All of their firewire ports are TI based. Ive used both in my DAW rigs (now and in the past) and they perform flawless. I would stay away from laptops. Especially Dell. Too restricting. I use Antec cases and power supplies and they are quiet and easy to build. My DAW rig has been upgraded 3 times (3 years) and Im on the same Antec Sonata case and powersupply. Pretty damn quiet. I just bought a 27" monitor and my graphics card in my DAW rig is a max resolution (its a Nvidia 7800gs) and I am at the point I need to upgrade it. Im researching video cards, as far as sound level and performance. The cooling cards on these newer faster video cards are Mac Trucks as far as sound. But if your monitor is smaller than 22" then a Nvidia 9800 would be a good video card. Enough video power and the latest chips dont need the mammoth fans they did when the 9800 came out a few years back. For $500 - $600 you can build a hell of a DAW rig - the monitor of course. But I would not go the laptop route. If {censored} goes wrong with it your out of luck. A desktop you can fix easier and cheaper. Plus you have all those USB ports to add all your extras too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted March 7, 2011 Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 I clicked on the NewEgg link for the USB stick and it says up to 70MB/s. I think that's pretty much up there with USB 2.0 hard drives, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted March 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 Yeah, my current computer has a Gigabyte mobo and Antec Sonata case, and it's been rock solid for me too. Part of me is very tempted to just build another desktop rig like that, and part of me is really tempted by the mobility of a laptop. But then again, I always need a laptop anyway, so if this one works reasonably OK for DAW purposes, I might just upgrade it in a year and have both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Lee Flier Posted March 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted March 7, 2011 But you will let us know the results of said experiments, right? For sure! BTW I did forget to mention one catch - I have run into a couple programs that, for whatever reason, wouldn't let me specify a USB stick as the default drive for recording...IIRC Sound Forge 9 was one such program. Haven't tried it with Sound Forge 10. I already know Reaper will do that, and in fact some people have carried Reaper itself around on a stick for years, since it's such a small install. I've yet to find hardware that won't work with Reaper - even an 002. But thanks for the caveat - might help some other folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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