About to give up on my strat.....a bit long, sorry...

[BIGD]

I've always been partial to the feel of a strat. I like the body shape, the necks, the weight and balance...

 

My other 2 main guitars are a blacktop Jazzmaster and a 72 thinline reissue. The blacktop has stock pickups, only mod is that the bridge saddles are locktighted to stop the infamous rattling.

 

The thinline has a custom pickguard that I've mounted a GFS surf 90 in the neck position and a Dimarzio 36th anniversary in the bridge, 500K volume pot instead of stock 250K.

 

The strat is a Mexican black standard body and neck, with a replacement tortoise pickguard (I love the way this guitar looks) and the electronics originally from my 91 American standard (which I feel is actually an inferior piece of wood to the MIM) Pickups are a duncan little 59 neck, Am. std strat middle, Dimarzio Fast track 2 bridge. Last night I installed a 500K volume pot on the strat..hoping to finally get some life out of it.

 

No matter how much I want the strat to be playable either live or on the studio, the simple fact is that my other 2 guitars just kick it's ass tonewise. (I always felt that same about my other Am. Std strat against other guitars..no matter what pickups were in it)

 

Where the other guitars glisten and shimmer in the high end, the strat is just harsh. Where the other guitars roar with nice sustained mids..the strat plinks and plunks. Amplified the other 2 guitars are simply louder..and the Fast track 2 is specd as the most powerful pickup of all of them. All are the same scale length and same strings (10's).

 

WTF do I have to do to make the strat at least approach the others in tone? I think maybe blocking the trem is killing sustain and "openess", contrary to what many people seem to think that it helps, I think it hurts..but I can't deal with the tuning issues from a floating bridge. Should I try a trem stop device? Does that perserve the tone as if it were floating? I've done the "loosen the neck bolts and retighten" thing, the affect was minimal.

 

I just don't get it.

[TeleFromHelly]

Go down to GC and play 10 strats, see if they have the same tone or if it is your particular beast. Strats aren't for everyone!

[WRGKMC]

You would be amazed at how much the proper setup of the instrument counts for the tone you speak of.

Floating bridges are twice as hard to get setup as a fixed bridge, but it can and is done all the time.

 

I cant speak of your guitar of course because it requires hands on. I would suggest specking out all settings by the book using feeler gauges, rulers etc.

then instead of setting intonation at the 12th fret check the last frets on a chromatic tuner. 9 times out of ten when I get a guitar sucks for tone the last frets are way too sharp.

Set intonation to those frets then if the 12th frets are a littel flat, give the neck a littel more relief, then repeat. A neck too flat will rob the strings of sustain by fretting out.

Theres plenty of more suggestions of course including string selection, pickup tupes, pickup distances, amp choice, etc etc. Even the neck screws may be loose or someone put paper in there as a shim and its robbing sustain and tone.

 

Next, it may just not have good wood tone. Painted guitars are often painted because the paint hides crappy wood grains. Choice woods get used in natureals and sunbursts and usually sell for more because they have better wood. Or maybe strats arent your bag. I played gibsons for a good 8 years before I bought my first tele in the 70s.

 

I got a bad taste in my mouth from that one. It wasnt bad but wasnt great either. Then my buddy who worked at a music store brought over a new strat he got. That sucker killed for tone and feel. The setup was spot on and every note gave that perfect strat tone. It taught me a few things. you cant beat a killer setup, and just because its got a name on it means nothing. I bought a cheap assed butterscotch squier affinity tele a few years ago and did a littel mod work and I been playing the thing regularly since. I just did a refret a few months ago and it its a killer guitar now. Everything else is stock.

 

I also got a bunch of strats, some are Japaneese some are mexican. Theres definately differences between them and some are better than others. I even have a squire That I like better than my one vintage fender for tone and that ones completely stock.

[BIGD]

 

You would be amazed at how much the proper setup of the instrument counts for the tone you speak of. Floating bridges are twice as hard to get setup as a fixed bridge, but it can and is done all the time. I cant speak of your guitar of course because it requires hands on. I would suggest specking out all settings by the book using feeler gauges, rulers etc. then instead of setting intonation at the 12th fret check the last frets on a chromatic tuner. 9 times out of ten when I get a guitar sucks for tone the last frets are way too sharp. Set intonation to those frets then if the 12th frets are a littel flat, give the neck a littel more relief, then repeat. A neck too flat will rob the strings of sustain by fretting out. Theres plenty of more suggestions of course including string selection, pickup tupes, pickup distances, amp choice, etc etc. Even the neck screws may be loose or someone put paper in there as a shim and its robbing sustain and tone. Next, it may just not have good wood tone. Painted guitars are often painted because the paint hides crappy wood grains. Choice woods get used in natureals and sunbursts and usually sell for more because they have better wood. Or maybe strats arent your bag. I played gibsons for a good 8 years before I bought my first tele in the 70s. I got a bad taste in my mouth from that one. It wasnt bad but wasnt great either. Then my buddy who worked at a music store brought over a new strat he got. That sucker killed for tone and feel. The setup was spot on and every note gave that perfect strat tone. It taught me a few things. you cant beat a killer setup, and just because its got a name on it means nothing. I bought a cheap assed butterscotch squier affinity tele a few years ago and did a littel mod work and I been playing the thing regularly since. I just did a refret a few months ago and it its a killer guitar now. Everything else is stock. I also got a bunch of strats, some are Japaneese some are mexican. Theres definately differences between them and some are better than others. I even have a squire That I like better than my one vintage fender for tone and that ones completely stock.

 

 

Thanks for the reply..I'm wondering if neck relief is an issue...I noticed when restringing the guitar after changing the volume pot that tuning was dropping on adjoining strings pretty dramatically when tuning up..and the trem is completely blocked. I'm sure you should expect a bit of this but it seemed like maybe too much was going on. I will explore some of your tips.

[WRGKMC]

Hold down the first and last frets and pluck the string in the middel. They should just clear all other frets. If they fret out, then its likely over tightened. That can rob the strings of tone and sustain. Make sure the mounting screws are tight and the neck is not tilted too. Carrying fenders in cases can cause the neck to shift. Hold the guitar at the tail and look up the neck. Make sure the dots are centered between the two center strings and the strings are centered over the pickup poles. Swapping pickups sometimes you have poles that dont match the string spacing and that can suck the life out of string tone.

[TeleFromHelly]

 

Thanks for the reply..

 

Youre welcome

[3volved]

Strats aren't for everyone!

 

Unfortunately, I think I'm starting to learn this too.

[MojoFilter]

Sometimes, you just get a bad one. Some guitars just feel "dead"...the wood they used wasn't the best on those ones. A pickup swap will help make it sound better to a degree, as will changing the values of the pots and tone caps (I wouldn't personally use 500k values for a single-coil equipped guitar) but if the guitar feels kinda dead and lifeless in your hands, there aren't really any magic bullets that completely turn it around.

 

On a scale of 1 to 10, if that guitar plays like a "3" unplugged, I'd suggest selling it....and I'm referring to a guitar that's been set-up properly.

 

You can go nuts and add a high-mass sustain block to the tremolo, re-do the nut, upgrade all the electronics and pickups, get a Callaham trem, level and crown the frets, etc...but it's not really addressing the underlying problem...sometimes you just get a bad one.

 

This really doesn't have to do with Strats, per se...it's universal. If you want to play what's almost guaranteed to be a good Stratocaster, go to a music store and try out an Eric Johnson Strat. I've played about a dozen, and they're varying degrees of good to excellent. Compare the EJ to your guitar, but unplugged. A good Strat will vibrate all the way up your fretting hand...and a bad one will feel like you're just holding a block of wood.

[fretmonster]

 

Sometimes, you just get a bad one. Some guitars just feel "dead"...the wood they used wasn't the best on those ones. A pickup swap will help make it sound better to a degree, as will changing the values of the pots and tone caps (I wouldn't personally use 500k values for a single-coil equipped guitar) but if the guitar feels kinda dead and lifeless in your hands, there aren't really any magic bullets that completely turn it around. On a scale of 1 to 10, if that guitar plays like a "3" unplugged, I'd suggest selling it....and I'm referring to a guitar that's been set-up properly. You can go nuts and add a high-mass sustain block to the tremolo, re-do the nut, upgrade all the electronics and pickups, get a Callaham trem, level and crown the frets, etc...but it's not really addressing the underlying problem...sometimes you just get a bad one. This really doesn't have to do with Strats, per se...it's universal. If you want to play what's almost guaranteed to be a good Stratocaster, go to a music store and try out an Eric Johnson Strat. I've played about a dozen, and they're varying degrees of good to excellent. Compare the EJ to your guitar, but unplugged. A good Strat will vibrate all the way up your fretting hand...and a bad one will feel like you're just holding a block of wood.

 

 

Can't disagree with a thing you have said, but still not sure that this is the problem as the OP said that this Strat was a "better piece of wood than my American Standard". I think it would be worth it to install a better block than that pot metal thing you find in MIMs. It did wonders for mine in the tone sustain dept. http://www.guitarfetish.com/Upgrade-Steel-and-Brass-Tremolo-Blocks_c_219.html

And yes definitely unblock the trem (to the OP), why have a Strat if you can't hear the springs?

[MojoFilter]

 

Can't disagree with a thing you have said, but still not sure that this is the problem as the OP said that this Strat was a "better piece of wood than my American Standard".

 

 

Possibly, but there's no guarantee that the American Standard is any good, either...

 

To the OP: You've changed out the pickups, and you've moved to a 500k Volume pot...did you also change the tone cap value? As long as you're not using "no load" tone pots, that cap is in your signal path, and changing the value can make a difference.

 

You probably have .022uF's in there, left over from when that chassis had 3 single coils, unless you've changed 'em. You might want to give this article a read:

 

http://www.premierguitar.com/magazine/issue/2008/Mar/Auditioning_Tone_Capacitors.aspx

[BIGD]

 

Possibly, but there's no guarantee that the American Standard is any good, either... To the OP: You've changed out the pickups, and you've moved to a 500k Volume pot...did you also change the tone cap value? As long as you're not using "no load" tone pots, that cap is in your signal path, and changing the value can make a difference. You probably have .022uF's in there, left over from when that chassis had 3 single coils, unless you've changed 'em. You might want to give this article a read: http://www.premierguitar.com/magazine/issue/2008/Mar/Auditioning_Tone_Capacitors.aspx

 

 

The pots were all from my 91 American Standard, which has the deltatone "no load" control on the bridge and middle pickup. I only changed the volume pot from the original 250 to a 500K. I played the guitar through my amp at reasonable volume last night, and it actually is better after the pot swap, but it's still behind my other 2 regular guitars.

 

The trem block has been replaced with a GFS steel one...didn't really make much difference to my ears, maybe actually a little less sustain but more volume in the "plink". I think there are a lot of mythgs about strat tone that many people repeat. #1 is that blocking the trem increases sustain. I don't buy this one at all.

[ballhawk]

Hey BIGD,

 

For what it's worth.... I had a cheap strat copy that sounded horrible. Unplugged I could feel the notes resonating through the body but plugged in it sounded like ass. Installed a set of Bill Lawrence L200's in it and it came alive! It's been my number 1 for a few years now.

 

I'm not saying these particular pups are your answer. You may just have a bad piece of lumber. What I'm suggesting is that a quality set (not necessarily BL's) of lower output pups might be worth looking into. You have a mixed and matched set of pups now, 2 of which are voiced to be darker. You might be amazed at what could happen with the right set.

 

Higher K's of output are no guarantee of good tone imho. Learning about inductance and henries really helped my insight into how to get good sound. The right resonant peak might make that axe come alive.

[MojoFilter]

 

Hey BIGD, For what it's worth.... I had a cheap strat copy that sounded horrible. Unplugged I could feel the notes resonating through the body but plugged in it sounded like ass. Installed a set of Bill Lawrence L200's in it and it came alive! It's been my number 1 for a few years now.

 

 

I use Lawrence L-200's in most of my Strats, too. Excellent, excellent pickups...I can't recommend them highly enough for someone who's looking for noiseless single coils that have a vintage sound.

[straycat113]

I think MojoFilter hit the nail on the head and that the guitar is just a dog. Now if you said you were giving up on Strats because the volume knob was to close to the bridge and you constantly cut the volume before a solo or the middle pup gets in the way of your picking, bottom line just not comfortable to play I could understand. But you re-modded half the guitar and you cant get a good tone I chuck it up to being a dog. It is not that easy to find a great sounding ax and you have to go through a few before you get the -one. I dont care where it was made of if it is CS or vintage it can still be a dud. In the 80s I bought two MIJ Teles and modded them with the same pups and one is still one of the best sounding guitars I own even against a guitar that cost 5X what I paid and the other sounded like sh!t and no matter what I did the tone was horrid. If your other two guitars sound great then make one of them your #1 and keep an eye out for the right Strat as it will come along.

[BoneNut]

I love Strats and bought four or five of them but none of them worked out for me. I sold them all off but still, I wanted a good one.

 

I thought it was me. After all, Strats are THE icon!

 

Those bad guitars did serve a purpose, they showed me what I loved Stratocasters and what I despised. Based on that, I made my own from parts and bits. Couldn't be happier with the results. I've had my part o caster for over three years now and it still wows me every time I pick it up. It's not going anywhere.

:thu:

[sammyreynolds01]

Like has been mentioned some times you just get a {censored} guitar.

[WRGKMC]

Matching the wood resonance to the pickup selection is a really big factor. Fender pickups are selected for the best frequency responce for the particular wood type. They do hire engineers who know their stuff. Chances are if he puts the stock pups back in and does a good setup the thing will come back to life.

 

At this point he has three different manufacturers pickups in there with three different frequency responces. Having three matched pickups is alot easier to get the tones working together. They may working well together or they may be fighting each other causing some nasty frequency cancellation or giving the tone large notches and/or bumps. having a trained ear that isnt trying to sell you something should help to rectify whats going on.

 

I have one strat build for example I had to swap various pickups out about 6 times to find a working combination. I had some great pickups to try but its like taking a good carb and just throwing it on an engine because it fits. It may not be an improvement at all and can make the thing sound terrible. Mine currently has an Ibanez full sized HB in the bridge, a vintage

Dimarzio single in the middel and a mighty mite single in the neck at this point. Wierd combo but it cooks. Had to make a wooden pickguard because of the bodies non standard shape and it adds a nice resonance too. As here someone said, getting the acoustic resonance to peak performance would be step one, then finding the right pickup combination would follow. I havent found many strats that I couldnt make sound good, even better thant a high quality strat that isnt set up right. Making them sound superior is not always possible.

[soundcreation]

dead wood.

 

my strat has more 'life' to it than any guitar I've ever played. A good resonant strat body is an amazing thing.

 

Of course anti wood snobs here are going to tell you that it's bull{censored} but whatever. You've tried the pickup thing and you KNOW that doesn't work......so either give up.........or play a bunch until you find one that sings. If you've never found one that sings then you can't know what you're missing.

[Jarick]

I would say try some different pickups in there, some decent real Strat pickups, rather than humbuckers (stacked or side by side or whatever). I've got a pair of noiseless on the way as a last ditch but every regular Strat pickup I've tried, even the cheap ones, wipes the floor with the fancy noiseless or humbucker versions. Maybe some GFS Alnico 2's.

 

You might also benefit from a setup too, even the cheapie ones where they just change the strings, tweak the neck, adjust the saddles/pickup heights, etc. Sometimes it's good to get another set of hands involved.

[honeyiscool]

If it sucks enough, just put EMGs in it. It'll make it sound like an EMG equipped guitar.

[BIGD]

Well, last night I did a direct comparison between the 3 guitars. I had to use a pod with headphones for part of this because it was late...I know, I know, no high end and pods suck. Again, for reference sake.

 

First thing I did..I realized all 6 trem screws were pretty loose. I tightened those bastards down. Then, I raised the pickups a tad from where they had been to put them more in line with the other 2 guitars.

 

After going back and forth, there is nothing wrong with the strats tone. It does not sustain quite as much as the tele (hardtail flat mount bridge on a semi-hollow), but it does fine against the Jazzmaster. The Jazzmaster is just really friggin bright and loud. The strat is actually the warmest of the 3 guitars, and sounds closer to a Les Paul than anything (again, all three guitars have humbuckers in the bridge). The tele has a maple fingerboard, the Jazz is rosewood.

 

The next opportunity to play loud through an amp comparing all three will hopefully yeild the same results.

 

It is obvious though that the Jazzmasters body and neck are much more alive when unplugged. Comparing the strat to the thinline is in this aspect would be silly because..a hollow body just feels more vibrant, but the Jazz is solid and made from the same wood as the strat..same price range also.

 

The Jazzmaster's neck is significantly thicker than the strat, even though they are both really strat neck profiles and made in Mexico. Is it that, or is the tune-o-matic type bridge just superior to the strat trem setup in terms of vibration transfer, or both?

 

Anyway, the strat is still #3 out of 3, but it isn't nearly as far behind as I thought.

[DaleH]

First thing I did..I realized all 6 trem screws were pretty loose. I tightened those bastards down. Then, I raised the pickups a tad from where they had been to put them more in line with the other 2 guitars

 

LOL good luck.

[BIGD]

First thing I did..I realized all 6 trem screws were pretty loose. I tightened those bastards down. Then, I raised the pickups a tad from where they had been to put them more in line with the other 2 guitars LOL good luck.

 

You question my modus operandi?

[DaleH]

You question my modus operandi?

 

Haha just crank a C clamp to the strats headstock. Lots more sustain.

[BIGD]

Mass on headstock=sustain. Total myth.

 

I'm going to spend a few hours sanding paint off the pickup cavities because that will improve tone DRAMATICALLY.