Gibson and Flat Top Frets. WHY!?!

[McCain]

 

:cop:This is incorrect. The point of contact is on the other side(nut side) of the worn fret.

 

Assuming the nut is to the left.

[Wyatt]

:cop:This is incorrect. The point of contact is on the other side(nut side) of the worn fret. Assuming the nut is to the left.

 

Again, it's not my graphic.

 

But if the string is bending down so far it's only contacting the back of the flat fret, chances are it's being bent way out of pitch anyway. Remember the string only goes down far enough to touch the top of the fret, it's not suppose to ever touch the fretboard itself. And the best place for the fretting finger is just barely behind the point of contact. Played the way, chances are the string will sit flush against the whole fret surface.

 

Also not my graphic...

 

[McCain]

Again, it's not my graphic. But if the string is bending down so far it's only contacting the back of the flat fret, chances are it's being bent way out of pitch anyway. Remember the string only goes down far enough to touch the top of the fret, it's not suppose to ever touch the fretboard itself.

 

I still think the intonation point will be the nut side.

 

I could be wrong though. I don't think I am but I could be.

[ihavenofish]

ive never had a gibson with what id call flat fret tops. ive never seen a new one in the store with flat frets. ive only ever seen it in pictures of 70's models.

 

the frets on my sg and melody maker sg bass are no different than whats on any other guitar i have.

[McCain]

OK. I'd like to reverse my stand. Sort of. On a naturally worn fret I think your right.

 

On a newly leveled fret without crowning it would hit the nut side.

[docjeffrey]

Here's a recent non- PLEK'd SG. It's had 5 years of wear, but you can see that the frets are broad but not exactly flat on the top.

 

 

[McCain]

 

OK. I'd like to reverse my stand. Sort of. On a naturally worn fret I think your right. On a newly leveled fret without crowning it would hit the nut side.

 

 

I just checked a guitar I leveled with the string's on and never removed for crowning since it played fine with them flat.

 

You can see that the fret contact and wear is starting on the nut side and progressing to the center.

 

But that's a flat fret and not a worn one.

[Pascal]

I recently bought a 2000 Gibson ES-150 reissue and when I received it, the low and flat frets were one of the very few things I did not like about and thought would take time getting used to.

 

And it did take some time, indeed: about 2 days.

[larryguitar]

 

I just checked a guitar I leveled with the string's on and never removed for crowning since it played fine with them flat. You can see that the fret contact and wear is starting on the nut side and progressing to the center. But that's a flat fret and not a worn one.

 

 

 

How did you level with strings on?

[GAS Man]

I bought one used ES-335 that was very much that way. Sliding was dang near painful and certainly hampered. I took it to a luthier and got the frets crowned. That improved it a bit.

[Arr0wHead]

Some older models were referred to as "Fretless wonders", due to the incredibly short and flat frets. My own guitar has frets that are super flat and shallow. I'll try to take a pic at some point. Either way I think it's a 70's Norlin era thing that they might have continued on in some models. I agree, though, that the new models I've seen in stores are normal and round, not flat.

 

 

 

This is what the frets on MY guitar look like, but this picture is not my actual guitar:

 

 

 

That's the "fretless wonder" style. However, there are other variations I've seen that are taller, but still flat on top.

 

Here's a '60 Melody Maker's frets someone posted:

 

[photon9]

I could never plunk the kind of dough gibson wants down on a guitar i would have to work on right away to play as good as a guitar half the price. If u like em flat thats great but to me it seems sloppy and unfinished. Feels horrible too. Guess ill have to look used for one thats already had the work done. =D

[McCain]

How did you level with strings on?

 

Have you intonated your guitars using the 1st/13th fret method yet?

 

OK I've only done it this way once but once was enough to know that it's a better way than what I had been using...this stew-mac leveler bar http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Leveling/Fret_Fingerboard_Levelers.html with 320 paper http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Polishing_and_abrasives/Stikit_Gold_Paper_Self-adhesive_Abrasives.html

 

1. After straighting the neck under string tension I loosened the strings and then jacked-up the strings at the nut and bridge.

 

It was a LP type bridge so I raised it up as far as I could and placed something similar to this to raise thev strings at the nut. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/Resonator_nuts,_saddles/Slide_Guitar_Extension_Nut.html (But a piece of wood would work just as well at both the nut and bridge.)

 

2. Then instead of using the truss-rod I tightened the strings to return the neck to straight again with the help of this notched straightedge. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Leveling/Notched_Straight_Edge.html

 

3. Then I stuck the 320 sandpaper to the flat side of the notched straightedge, slipped it under the strings and leveled the frets with the straightedge.

 

 

To make it easier for next time I got some of this double-stick tape http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Glues,_adhesives/Tape/Double-stick_Tape.html?actn=100101&xst=3&xsr=455

 

and a couple or routing templates http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Templates/Pickup_Routing_Templates/Humbucker_Pickup_Routing_Template.html

for attaching to the straightedge. Something to hold on to for better control.

 

4. That's it.

[larryguitar]

Have you intonated your guitars using the 1st/13th fret method yet? Thanks for asking... I've only done it this way once but once was enough to know that it's a better way than what I had been using...this stew-mac leveler bar http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Leveling/Fret_Fingerboard_Levelers.html with 320 paper http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Polishing_and_abrasives/Stikit_Gold_Paper_Self-adhesive_Abrasives.html 1. After straighting the neck under string tension I loosened the strings and then jacked-up the strings at the nut and bridge. It was a LP type bridge so I raised it up as far as I could and placed something similar to this to raise thev strings at the nut. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Nuts,_saddles/Resonator_nuts,_saddles/Slide_Guitar_Extension_Nut.html (But a piece of wood would work just as well at both the nut and bridge.) 2. Then instead of using the truss-rod I tightened the strings to return the neck to straight again with the help of this notched straightedge. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Leveling/Notched_Straight_Edge.html 3. I applied the sandpaper to the flat side of the notched straightedge and leveled the frets with the straightedge. To make it easier for next time I got some of this double-stick tape http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Glues,_adhesives/Tape/Double-stick_Tape.html?actn=100101&xst=3&xsr=455 and a couple or routing templates http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tools/Templates/Pickup_Routing_Templates/Humbucker_Pickup_Routing_Template.html for attaching to the straightedge for better control. 4.

 

 

I'm just wondering what the advantage would be, rather than stripping the strings, adjusting the neck dead flat and leveling with the usual tools?

[McCain]

 

I'm just wondering what the advantage would be, rather than stripping the strings, adjusting the neck dead flat and leveling with the usual tools?

 

 

Lowest possible string action without buzzing.(Worked for me.) Stew-mac has an expensive specialized jig for doing the same thing.

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Jigs_and_fixtures/Erlewine_Neck_Jig.html?tab=Instructions#details

[Guitar Heel]

 

If you're coming across flat frets either thay are worn by the user or they were leveled and not crownes. you do find alot of old gibbys with flatter frets because thay havent been refretted yet.

 

 

Not true. Walk into any Guitar Center.

[HanSolo]

Every Gibson I've ever seen hanging in Guitar Center, brand new, had flat topped frets. I've even posted a similar question to the OP on more than one occasion, but I've come to the conclusion that it's what Gibson is best at: turning a cost-cutting maneuver into a 'feature.'

 

They need to incorporate BFF into the model#. That's Barely Finished Frets. not Best Friends Forever

 

I rcently bought my first Gibsons, a 2006 Les Paul Standard Plus and a 2010 ES-335. I assume the 335 was pleked and the LP not? Both were like new and nearly unplayed so I rule out fret wear. Regardless, both fret profiles are identical and fairly flat on top.

 

In comparison, I just sold a Schecter Diamond Series and the frets were perfectly half round and highly polished. Those Schecters have the nicest fretwork going.

[larryguitar]

 

Lowest possible string action without buzzing.(Worked for me.) Stew-mac has an expensive specialized jig for doing the same thing. http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Fretting_supplies/Jigs_and_fixtures/Erlewine_Neck_Jig.html?tab=Instructions#details

 

 

I understand the concept, but always understood the neck jig was for necks that wouldn't go dead flat with just a TR adjustment. Did you have problems getting it straight first, and then have to use the strung technique?

[Jkater]

This thread is interesting for me becaue my Les Paul has such flat frets. i see I' not the only one. I can live with it but i don't like the feel that much.

[ihavenofish]

However, there are other variations I've seen that are taller, but still flat on top. Here's a '60 Melody Maker's frets someone posted:

 

i do not consider this flat at all. they are low, but crowned. the "fretles wonder" is what i think of when i hear flat.

[McCain]

I understand the concept, but always understood the neck jig was for necks that wouldn't go dead flat with just a TR adjustment. Did you have problems getting it straight first, and then have to use the strung technique?

 

I didn't have any problem getting it straight but straight under string tension is not the same. Necks will or at least can flex and twist slightly when strung and that's what the jig is supposed to duplicate and not just to straighten stubborn necks.

 

But I think leveling under actual tension is going to be proven a better and more accurate method.

 

Sorta like leaving the nut out of the intonation process.

[Filter500]

I find flatter fret tops easier to play on. It feels more more stable and less slippery, and I don't need to be as careful technique-wise.

[McCain]

I don't don't like perfectly crowned frets myself because they wear faster. Or a least that perfect crown won't stay perfect for long.

[McCain]

On dial-up so can't take the time to find the vid. but remember one guy demonstrating how Gibson crowned frets. He demonstrated they use a piece of plastic/rubber like a credit card, folded sandpaper over one edge, held it at a 45% angle and quickly swiped it up and down the neck so it hit the fret sides and jumped over the top barely touching the crown.

 

That technique would probably end up with something looking like the before shot.

http://claybornguitars.com/images/fret_dress_2ntg.jpg

[MrChitlins]

After examining my Gibsons & Fenders, the frets on both are properly crowned, but the difference appears to be in the radius of the crown, the Gibson being 'flatter'.

Which is similar to the fretboard radius(12 vs 9.5) also being flatter.