Here We Go Again

[Mark L]

Audio interface? Don't complicate the issue, mate! I'm still trying to figure out how to place the preset instruments in tracks and sync 'em all together 'n' stuff

 

But I'm English. I'll persevere! Well.....maybe

[UstadKhanAli]

What were you using before that worked? Have you ever worked with anything that felt comfortable?

[Mark L]

What were you using before that worked? Have you ever worked with anything that felt comfortable ?

 

Software-based DAW-wise, you mean? Well I had a go with Fruity Loops and Rebirth many moons ago. I didn't really understand what I was doing, though. I know that at some point there will be a eureka moment, but not just yet

 

I need someone to physically sit down with me and take me through it. At the moment it's like wading through treacle, wearing lead boots and a blindfold

[rasputin1963]

Fruity Loops and REBIRTH are more about syncing up synths and FX (usually to make Techno, Dubstep, etc. Shoot me if I'm wrong here!)

 

A real, full-featured DAW doesn't "hold your hand" or "direct" you in any way... The sky's the limit and the field is open...

 

I'd be happy to get you up-and-rolling on SONAR. I know you hate SKYPE, but I think they've speeded up transfer lately.

[MikeRivers]

 

Well I had a go with Fruity Loops and Rebirth many moons ago. I didn't really understand what I was doing, though. I know that at some point there will be a eureka moment, but not just yet

 

 

There are two ends of the "DAW" spectrum with a very blurry wide continuum between them. On one end you have the traditional recording process where you have a real live (or synthesized, but not pre-recorded or pre-programmed) sound cource, a recorder, and a mixer. On the other end, you have a creation process which starts out with sounds that already exist, and you modify and assemble them to make something new. The programs that you've tried are well away from the traditional recording end - not that you can't do it using them, but it doesn't come as naturally as if you were using a mixer, recorder, microphones, and live musicians.

 

Since there is so much "constructed" music being made these days, most DAW programs accommodate this type of work, but some more or less expect that's what you're going to do. So if you play and sing and may depend on pre-made sound files for something basic like a backing track while you're recording the "real" parts, it's best to avoid programs that focus on making the manipulation of loops and sound clips easy and where traditional recording is just what you have to do in order to get a vocal track.

 

It would really help us if you could express what it is that you would like to do with your recording system. If your best answer is "anything that I can think of" then you'll be in for a long learning process. If you want to make a multitrack recorder and mixer out of your computer, there are better choices than Fruity Loops and Rebirth, even in their contemporary versions.

 

Nearly every DAW program can be set up with defaults and templates to match your interface hardware and the "view" that you want to have while you're working. Nearly all of them open with a "track" view which is important for editing and placing chunks of sound where you want to hear them, but it's not terribly useful if you want to see a mixer and use the computer as a recorder. You need to beat it into submission to work the way you want to work and it's helpful to have someone on hand to help you figure out what you need to see and which controls you need (and which you don't).

 

Unfortunately, books, YouTube videos, and (of course) manuals are oriented toward one specific program or another. You can hire a real professional consultant ($500/day plus travel expenses isn't unusual) but you might be able to find a local musician with a studio who works the way you do, or at least understands it, and is willing to come over for pizza and get you started. Reach out locally rather than trying to collect opinions from people scattered all over the world who can't read your mind.

[mcmike100]

 

Reaper !!!!!

 

 

Reaper!!!!!

[MikeRivers]

 

Reaper!!!!!

 

 

That would be my recommendation for someone who has some knowledge of how DAWs work (and who doesn't have the desire or need to buy into Pro Tools). That's not the case here, however. The first thing out of must about any Reaper user's mouth is "There's so many ways to do anything, and they're adding new feature by request every week." This can be mighty confusing to someone who doesn't already have a handle on the process and possibilities.

 

I've been using Reaper for a few years now, and I still can't remember how to do a simple edit. That's why I have Sound Forge and Fast Edit loaded on the same computers as Reaper.

[Mark L]

@Mike: That's a very interesting and thoughtful post. I suppose what I want is a multitrack recorder, mixer and masterer (if such a word exists!), with drum loops, synths, virtual keyboards....the whole shooting match!

 

Whenever I look at instructional videos or read pdf manuals for DAWS, there always seems to be an assumption that the viewer or reader has some basic knowledge on the subject. I have none. I need to be educated from scratch. I don't even understand most of the terminology mentioned in the various posts in this thread. All I know is standalone multitracks and that's it!

 

 

 

@Ras: You're right. I don't like talking on Skype

[MikeRivers]

 

@Mike: That's a very interesting and thoughtful post. I suppose what I want is a multitrack recorder, mixer and masterer (if such a word exists!), with drum loops, synths, virtual keyboards....the whole shooting match! Whenever I look at instructional videos or read pdf manuals for DAWS, there always seems to be an assumption that the viewer or reader has some basic knowledge on the subject. I have none.

 

 

There's a certain amount of learning that you get just by fumbling around. To tell you the truth, I don't use a DAW for anything productive. I have a console and my Mackie hard disk recorder, and I don't use drum loops. But I do try to look around and see what's going on in that part of the world.

 

Even though I'm pissed at the company (they kicked me off their forum) I think that Studio One might be a good place for you to start. The free version is worth checking out.

 

Check your private mail.

[Mark L]

There's a certain amount of learning that you get just by fumbling around. To tell you the truth, I don't use a DAW for anything productive. I have a console and my Mackie hard disk recorder, and I don't use drum loops. But I do try to look around and see what's going on in that part of the world. Even though I'm pissed at the company (they kicked me off their forum) I think that Studio One might be a good place for you to start. The free version is worth checking out. Check your private mail.

 

They kicked you off their forum? You don't come across as a trouble-maker, Mike

 

Received the PM. Thanks

[WRGKMC]

@Mike: That's a very interesting and thoughtful post. I suppose what I want is a multitrack recorder, mixer and masterer (if such a word exists!), with drum loops, synths, virtual keyboards....the whole shooting match! Whenever I look at instructional videos or read pdf manuals for DAWS, there always seems to be an assumption that the viewer or reader has some basic knowledge on the subject. I have none. I need to be educated from scratch. I don't even understand most of the terminology mentioned in the various posts in this thread. All I know is standalone multitracks and that's it! @Ras: You're right. I don't like talking on Skype

 

Dont know how far you are along with the basics but the best thing you can do is

study up on basics so you can make the decisions vs letting others do it for you.

thay may have the best intentions, but you may get stuck with something that

leads you to a dead end.

 

My first question would be, Do you have an interface?

If not you look at it this way. Interfaces come with anywheres from one to

dozens of "channels" The more channels, the more tracks you can record simutaniously.

The budget stuff is often two channels which allows you to record two tracks at once.

If you're going to record a band, 8 channels is usually a minimum, 16 is preferd for recording

a 4~5 piece band.

 

DAWs allow you to record virtually unlimited tracks based on the computer limitations,

so you can multitrack as many tracks as you want with whatever number of channels the interface has.

 

If you have no interface, chances are you cant get most DAW programs to run with a built in sound card.

Theres a few work arounds to get ASIO drivers working but most arent worth wasting your time with an onboard card

that only records 16/44.1. A pro interface will allow the DAW program to function properly and run all its plugins and instruments.

 

Next is the choice of interface. The popular choices are PCI, USB and Firewire. Thunderbolt is new and though there are some

interfaces that run with it, Many are still very expensive.

 

PCI is the provides the fastest communication and lowest latency of all interfaces.

They plug directly into the main bus and can handle allot of channels. The main drawback is

having the cards on an independant IRQ and not shared with a high CPu consumption device.

The other item is laptops dont have open PCI ports for most interfaces and regular PCI has been

pretty much phased out for the newer PCI express.

 

USB is a master slave communication port thet runs well if your OS, and CPU arent being taxed with multiple tasks.

tracking is probibly the least taxing because everything is just being written to disk anyway. If you get into more

tasks like reamping or running effects loops it can become and issue for some computers handleing the communication

when you combine it with other devices that may need allot of CPU attention. Otherwise USB can be fast enough for

most work.

 

Firewire is what most pro studios used to use. Its a peer to peer communication port that allows data transfer

in the background uninterrupted by the CPU. Even if the CPU does get bogged down the firewire will complete its

current communication before it gives you a problem. You do need to use a good firewire card preferibly with a

TX instruments chip to avoid dropouts. I've never found a good reason for the issues with other chips but I'm

guessing it deals with the speed of the communication protocal and the chip being able to keep up.

 

Firewire can be an issue for many newer laptops. You can use a PCIMA card but this can compound the

communication issues. You may be better off with USB.

 

If like I said you have no interface, and no DAW program yet, you can look into buying a bundle.

Lexicon sells a 2 channel interface with Cubase LE for about $50. Many others bundle their

hardware with other daw programs. Pretty much cant go wrong with the cost on many.

 

From there you can decide to upgrade to an expanded version of the DAW program

or add plugins as you need them. The big item is the plugin package you get with DAW programs.

It workt comparing all of them to see what you get for the money.

[BushmasterM4]

That would be my recommendation for someone who has some knowledge of how DAWs work (and who doesn't have the desire or need to buy into Pro Tools). That's not the case here, however. The first thing out of must about any Reaper user's mouth is "There's so many ways to do anything, and they're adding new feature by request every week." This can be mighty confusing to someone who doesn't already have a handle on the process and possibilities. I've been using Reaper for a few years now, and I still can't remember how to do a simple edit. That's why I have Sound Forge and Fast Edit loaded on the same computers as Reaper.

 

If one can find Tracktion, then that would be my first choice for ease of use. But Mackie has more or less dropped it. I bought PT10 and Reaper and still find myself firing up Tracktion 3 when I work on stuff. When Im bored I fire up PT10 or Reaper and mess around with them. Its a learning process. But Tracktions GUI is untouchable in my opinion. So stupid easy to use, but in the long run I think Reapers the one to use. You cant beat the price and I can still see Cockos churning out versions 20 years from now. Well at least till 12/21/12

[Mark L]

Dont know how far you are along with the basics but the best thing you can do is study up on basics so you can make the decisions vs letting others do it for you. thay may have the best intentions, but you may get stuck with something that leads you to a dead end. My first question would be, Do you have an interface? If not you look at it this way. Interfaces come with anywheres from one to dozens of "channels" The more channels, the more tracks you can record simutaniously. The budget stuff is often two channels which allows you to record two tracks at once. If you're going to record a band, 8 channels is usually a minimum, 16 is preferd for recording a 4~5 piece band. DAWs allow you to record virtually unlimited tracks based on the computer limitations, so you can multitrack as many tracks as you want with whatever number of channels the interface has. If you have no interface, chances are you cant get most DAW programs to run with a built in sound card. Theres a few work arounds to get ASIO drivers working but most arent worth wasting your time with an onboard card that only records 16/44.1. A pro interface will allow the DAW program to function properly and run all its plugins and instruments. Next is the choice of interface. The popular choices are PCI, USB and Firewire. Thunderbolt is new and though there are some interfaces that run with it, Many are still very expensive. PCI is the provides the fastest communication and lowest latency of all interfaces. They plug directly into the main bus and can handle allot of channels. The main drawback is having the cards on an independant IRQ and not shared with a high CPu consumption device. The other item is laptops dont have open PCI ports for most interfaces and regular PCI has been pretty much phased out for the newer PCI express. USB is a master slave communication port thet runs well if your OS, and CPU arent being taxed with multiple tasks. tracking is probibly the least taxing because everything is just being written to disk anyway. If you get into more tasks like reamping or running effects loops it can become and issue for some computers handleing the communication when you combine it with other devices that may need allot of CPU attention. Otherwise USB can be fast enough for most work. Firewire is what most pro studios used to use. Its a peer to peer communication port that allows data transfer in the background uninterrupted by the CPU. Even if the CPU does get bogged down the firewire will complete its current communication before it gives you a problem. You do need to use a good firewire card preferibly with a TX instruments chip to avoid dropouts. I've never found a good reason for the issues with other chips but I'm guessing it deals with the speed of the communication protocal and the chip being able to keep up. Firewire can be an issue for many newer laptops. You can use a PCIMA card but this can compound the communication issues. You may be better off with USB. If like I said you have no interface, and no DAW program yet, you can look into buying a bundle. Lexicon sells a 2 channel interface with Cubase LE for about $50. Many others bundle their hardware with other daw programs. Pretty much cant go wrong with the cost on many. From there you can decide to upgrade to an expanded version of the DAW program or add plugins as you need them. The big item is the plugin package you get with DAW programs. It workt comparing all of them to see what you get for the money.

 

Crikey, that's a post and a half!

 

Thanks, mate. You have given me much to chew on....

 

Oh, and to answer your question - no, I don't have an interface

[Mark L]

I actually recorded this song about 10 years ago using Fruity Loops 3 (I think)

 

Did the whole of the 'music' in a confused 10-hour session. Transferred the music to my 8-track via the headphone socket () and then added vocals

[ryan7585]

Dude just get Audacity. It's free and will record you fine. Almost no learning curve

 

Logic Pro is probably exactly what you want but it's a better idea to start with something simpler. But get Logic eventually, it's worth the money

 

Ableton Live is also good but it focuses on performance. If you are not performing with loops, you have little need for ableton... it's a nice looking, clean, smoothly-running program-- I switched from Logic to Ableton recently so I could use its looping function. Otherwise Logic can do all the same things and some of it better (this will change when ableton releases Push, then they'll totally dominate)

 

Unless you're gonna get pro-tools, pretty much any professional you ask uses these programs. Either ableton or Logic, combined with audacity. {censored}ing everybody uses Audacity. Seriously, get it. Any other DAW is too loaded with features to do simple things quickly. Audacity loads fast, records and edits, does multitrack, supports VSTs. For a beginner, unless you want to sequence and such right away, it simply doesn't get better

[UstadKhanAli]

Use something you like. Use something that makes sense to you. Try out a few demos, or like we keep saying, consider a dedicated recording device.

[kurdy]

This thread's subject is relevant to me, particularly regarding interfaces. I've been using a really old DAW on a really old computer with a PCI soundcard (M-Audio), and plan to upgrade soon. My brother bought me an iMac last year for Christmas, which so far has been collecting dust. I've always been a Windows user, so will likely have to start from scratch. I use an old version of Cakewalk (pre-Sonar), which only makes Windows products. I'm guessing DAWs have come a long way since 2002, but mine is the only one I've only ever used. So deciding on a whole new platform feels like a daunting task.

However, from what I know about DAWs, they all pretty much do the same thing, and whichever one you choose isn't going to be much different from any other. Of course, all of them may have their strengths and weaknesses, and they may do things in slightly different ways, but it really just comes down to preference. I think you simply have to jump in. Figure out how to do on it what you need to do for the project you're doing, rather than get overwhelmed trying to learn every aspect of every feature inside and out. I assume the majority of them have built-in help menus which make this easier. Eventually, you'll know your way around it well enough to do pretty much everything you need to do.

[UstadKhanAli]

From my experience, PCI connectors (using a PCI card) has been much more reliable than firewire, which has been a pain in the ass at times.

[MikeRivers]

Originally Posted by kurdy

This thread's subject is relevant to me, particularly regarding interfaces. I've been using a really old DAW on a really old computer with a PCI soundcard (M-Audio), and plan to upgrade soon.

How old is this computer? Will it run Windows XP? Lots of good DAW programs will run under XP, and your M-Audio interface is probably still supported. You might want to take your upgrade in small steps rather than start with a totally new system.

And along that same line, since you have last year's iMac, don't upgrade the operating system before you get started. Since you'll be needing a new interface, you may end up with one (or a program) that's lagging behind Apple. This isn't at all uncommon in the PC world and used to be almost a non-existent problem for Macs, but these days you can't even fully trust Apple.

However, from what I know about DAWs, they all pretty much do the same thing, and whichever one you choose isn't going to be much different from any other. Of course, all of them may have their strengths and weaknesses, and they may do things in slightly different ways, but it really just comes down to preference.

That's pretty much the way it is, but you don't know which one you prefer until you try a few. Of the couple of cross-platform programs that I know of (I'm strictly a PC user) that aren't Pro Tools, PreSonus Studio One is probably most like Cakewalk in that it seems to relate to the musician rather than the computer geek. Reaper is probably most like Pro Tools in that there are dozens of ways to do most things and you can learn (and configure) it in whatever way you're most comfortable - but you gotta do it.

Help is usually built in to some extent, but is not always helpful until you spend some time leanring the vocabulary. While most of them do pretty much the same things, they don't always use the same nomenclature.

[kurdy]

Originally Posted by MikeRivers

How old is this computer? Will it run Windows XP? Lots of good DAW programs will run under XP, and your M-Audio interface is probably still supported. You might want to take your upgrade in small steps rather than start with a totally new system.

I would say it's about early '00s (it's a Gateway, if that's any indication) And yes, it is currently running Windows XP. The approach you describe is probably what I would rather have done, but my brother, wanting to surprise me, just went ahead and bought the iMac without consulting me. I really appreciated the gesture, but it was a decision I much rather would have had a hand in making. But since I'm stuck with this iMac now, I might as well figure out how to make it work.

And my old computer is starting to make some whirring and clicking noises, so I'm not really comfortable with relying on it for too much longer.

Originally Posted by MikeRivers

And along that same line, since you have last year's iMac, don't upgrade the operating system before you get started. Since you'll be needing a new interface, you may end up with one (or a program) that's lagging behind Apple. This isn't at all uncommon in the PC world and used to be almost a non-existent problem for Macs, but these days you can't even fully trust Apple.

I will definitely keep that in mind.

Originally Posted by MikeRivers

That's pretty much the way it is, but you don't know which one you prefer until you try a few. Of the couple of cross-platform programs that I know of (I'm strictly a PC user) that aren't Pro Tools, PreSonus Studio One is probably most like Cakewalk in that it seems to relate to the musician rather than the computer geek. Reaper is probably most like Pro Tools in that there are dozens of ways to do most things and you can learn (and configure) it in whatever way you're most comfortable - but you gotta do it.

Help is usually built in to some extent, but is not always helpful until you spend some time leanring the vocabulary. While most of them do pretty much the same things, they don't always use the same nomenclature.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I think one develops preferences based on what they're used to. In Marky's case, since he's completely new to the world of DAWs, it makes less of a difference which one he picks because any of them will likely be quite different from what he's using now. So I think it makes more sense to just pick any one of them that fits his budget, rather than fret endlessly about deciding on the perfect one. Most of them are probably user-friendly enough these days that the learning curve won't be too steep. For the smoothest transition, I might suggest picking one that most closely mimics a standalone multitrack, but I really don't know which one that would be.

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by kurdy

But since I'm stuck with this iMac now, I might as well figure out how to make it work.

I use Mac and Windows about 50-50, and I think you might be surprised at how similar Macs and Windows machines have become. Mac partisans want you to think that Apple invented everything and Windows ripped off everything the Mac did, but both companies have been, uh, "borrowing" from each other for so long navigating one is pretty much like navigating the other. In my setup Windows is in my left monitor and Mac on my right, and I've set them up with the same basic layout and it's easy to switch back and forth between the two. In fact I made the desktop on the Mac different just to remind myself "you're working with the Mac now." You can even use two-button mice with the Mac and all that good stuff.

You can also run Boot Camp if you really want to run Windows programs. Today's Macs ARE PCs in terms of hardware, so running Boot Camp is pretty trivial. I know quite a few Windows folks who bought Mac PowerBooks and use them to run Windows because they like the build of the PowerBook.

As to interfaces, there are sooooo many. USB 2.0 works fine, which I'd generally recommend over FireWire unless you have the $$ to get something like UA's Apollo, or need to squeeze out some extra bandwidth. The Mac used to lag behind in USB implementation, but it has achieved parity with PCs and Core Audio makes it easy to aggregate interfaces (don't believe the horror stories about aggregation not working on the Mac, that's two years ago news). So if you buy a 4 x 4 interface and decide you really need 16 inputs...just get another interface and aggregate them.

iMacs are great machines, you're definitely not "stuck" and I bet it will take less than a month for you to move around it as fluidly as you move around Windows.