The missing "Funk" slider.

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by Folder

Same here.

I use MIDI and acid loops of real studio drummers. They make all the difference in the world IMHO. They have real dynamics and breathe because each individual hit has not been quantised to a grid.

I maintain to this day that one reason the Alesis SR-16 was such a successful drum machine was because the factory patterns were not programmed, but played by real drummers using MIDI pads.

The only thing I don't like about them is that you need to set an overall project tempo.

But you said you're using Acid loops...they can change tempo (within reason), and of course, so can MIDI loops. Is there something that prevents you from taking advantage of that?

[Anderton]

Originally Posted by Folder

Well I don't hear it.
Maybe it's because I'm an American

I know you're being facetious, but I think there's some truth to that. It's very difficult to get exposed to dance music in the US. And when you do, it usually is watered-down, like in car commercials or movies.

As I mentioned previously, any genre of music has both good and bad. When I was first getting into techno and such, the German Saturn stores made it really easy to listen to their CDs. I'd grab a handful, put on the 'phones, and find the one or two out of 10 or twenty that knocked my socks off. A lot of it was your basic pop crap - think Spice Girls meet synths - but then there would be the nuggets from more "underground" artists.

There's virtually no way a non-aficionado can be exposed to cool underground music in the US. Now that I think about it, you probably won't even be exposed to "aboveground" music.

[Folder]

Originally Posted by Anderton

I maintain to this day that one reason the Alesis SR-16 was such a successful drum machine was because the factory patterns were not programmed, but played by real drummers using MIDI pads.

Wow, I never knew that.
I actually had a used SR-16 for a while and I liked the sound of it and some of the patterns but I sold it before I ever got around to recording anything with it.

Originally Posted by Anderton

But you said you're using Acid loops...they can change tempo (within reason), and of course, so can MIDI loops. Is there something that prevents you from taking advantage of that?

Well I have experimented with slight tempo changes in Sonar like speeding up a tiny bit on the choruses or towards the end of a song or maybe on a fill. But as I'm not a drummer and I'm usually recording the drum parts first it's kind of hard for me to get a feel for where the tempo changes should be. Also I guess you could say I'm a bit indecisive I and can spend an inordinate amount of time experimenting when I really don't know what the heck I'm doing and then of course the tempo changes always stick out and sound unnatural to me anyway.

When I record with real drummers everything sounds natural because I think a good drummer instictually knows how to vary tempo in the "right" places. I even have drum loops where I can hear the drummers varying the tempo ever so slightly (especially on fills) within the actual loops and can sometimes hear tiny "rhythmic glitches" where two loops connect to one another.

For the way that I work and the kind of music I do it just seems like more work than it's worth. But then again I guess I don't really know how to do it.

[Folder]

Originally Posted by Anderton

I usually apply swing to an entire pattern, as it ignores everything that's not supposed to swing. It normally applies to high-hat patterns, but I sometimes use kick patterns where a pickup will be "swung."

The key is to use a subtle amount if applied in this manner. It's the kind of thing where you don't know it's there unless you turn it off.

The only musician I know who can make excessive amounts of swing work is Dr. Walker over in Germany. He sometimes uses 75% swing but applies it selectively instead of to the entire track.

Craig I haven't tried it in years and I don't have Sonar in front of me. But from what I remember you had to choose the note value that you wanted to swing. For example eighth notes or quarter notes. Lets say I chose quarter notes on on a 4/4 pattern then the snare would be slightly delayed because the snare is on the two and the four, and with swing every other note is delayed. Am I correct? If you swung the eighth notes then the ans would be delayed as in one "an" two "an". This would mean that the snare would not be delayed. Every other high-hat hit which are between the kick and snare would be delayed. Is this right? For whatever reason I could never get the swing function in Sonar to sound natural.

I read your Sonar columns in Sound on Sound. Since you are the master music explainer maybe you could do a tutorial about how to make MIDI tracks swing and groove. (maybe you've already done one and I missed it) Or better yet, maybe you could let us hear a basic MIDI pattern with swing on and swing off and tell us which notes were swung and by what percentage.

[techristian]

When was the last time that I discussed diminished chords? I find it just as funny that a bunch of non drummers are discussing rhythm, funk and otherwise.

As a drummer there are only two types of shuffle that I play. 16th note shuffle (hardly ever) or triplet shuffle. To play funk, most of the time I will accent the "ANDS" These gradual variations from 8th notes to shuffle are only new products of automation. I have never tried to play something which is halfway between a shuffle and straight 8th notes. Of course I could emulate such a thing after practicing with it for some time, but is it the natural way that I would play it? No. Could I define it as funk. I don' think so, because it is unnatural. Perhaps I could call it pseudofunk?

Dan

[Folder]

Originally Posted by techristian

When was the last time that I discussed diminished chords? I find it just as funny that a bunch of non drummers are discussing rhythm, funk and otherwise.

Originally Posted by techristian

As a drummer there are only two types of shuffle that I play. 16th note shuffle (hardly ever) or triplet shuffle. To play funk, most of the time I will accent the "ANDS" These gradual variations from 8th notes to shuffle are only new products of automation. I have never tried to play something which is halfway between a shuffle and straight 8th notes. Of course I could emulate such a thing after practicing with it for some time, but is it the natural way that I would play it? No. Could I define it as funk. I don' think so, because it is unnatural. Perhaps I could call it pseudofunk?

Dan

[Anderton]

Dan, swing is a creature of drum machines. Like others here, I often use "real" drum loops (I still think the Discrete Drum sets are totally outstanding). But they're not appropriate for music that's written for drum machines. In fact, calling them "drum machines" was probably a mistake, because then people have drum-like expectations. They should have been called "rhythm synthesizers" or something, then they could have been accepted on their own terms

Just as rigid quantization is a characteristic of, uh, rhythm synthesizers, swing is a way to alter that rigidity. It's still rigid, but in a more interesting way.

[RockViolin]

Originally Posted by techristian

When was the last time that I discussed diminished chords? I find it just as funny that a bunch of non drummers are discussing rhythm, funk and otherwise.


Dan

Since when are rhythm, funk and otherwise to be discussed only by drummers?

[RockViolin]

It's one thing, to read people going on about the ins and outs of being able to read music, though they can't read music btw. But, c'mon man.

[Rabid]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

[blue2blue]

Originally Posted by RockViolin

It's one thing, to read people going on about the ins and outs of being able to read music, though they can't read music btw. But, c'mon man.

Did I hear my name not quite whispered?

For the record, I'm not trying to get anyone for whom the Standard Notation system works and is comfortable to 'switch' to some new system.

I was just saying I think the exploration of alternative -- and hopefully more logical and less semantically overloaded -- notational systems is worthwhile on the academic/research level.


With regard to flipping new music, I make a point of checking out music (using my MOG subscription) I read about -- on those occasions it actually sounds like a) I might like it or b) it might provide a new direction to elements in the music scene or b) might give me or someone else new ideas that could be absorbed into music more to my or their liking. It's mostly a thankless task, I have to say, many (I stopped myself frtom saying most) recording engineers seem to have really lame taste in music. (That, of course, is from my perspective of having exceptional taste in music. I can confirm that: everything I like is brilliant. Almost.)

[RockViolin]

Originally Posted by blue2blue

Did I hear my name not quite whispered?

For the record, I'm not trying to get anyone for whom the Standard Notation system works and is comfortable to 'switch' to some new system.

I was just saying I think the exploration of alternative -- and hopefully more logical and less semantically overloaded -- notational systems is worthwhile on the academic/research level.

I can think of a number of number of forumites that may have heard their names...floating on the breeze. But I wasn't calling you out, bluetoblue.

I'm smarter than I look.

Alternative notation. Yeah, it's something I'd enjoy investigating, just because I enjoy finding new ways of doing things. But with so much detail that can vary so widely in the music itself, it's unlikely I think that any system will come about that isn't overloaded in some way. Learning to read music is always going to be a long row to hoe, for many people.