Members Terry Allan Hall Posted April 4, 2005 Members Share Posted April 4, 2005 Originally posted by Locky Those are the same charity gigs and shows for friends that I've been talking about this whole time. OK, one more time (and this time, please pay attention!): If you're doing a freebie in your backyard, your friend's backyard, for a church charity, etc. = Fine Doing a freebie in a bar, restaurant, tavern, lounge, honkytonk, cafe, etc. (in other words, a commercial entity/establishment = screwing over every musician you'll ever meet. Hope this is finally clear enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dcrenshaw Posted April 4, 2005 Members Share Posted April 4, 2005 How about playing music for free at a comedy club... Is it okay to screw over the comedian guild? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted April 4, 2005 Members Share Posted April 4, 2005 Originally posted by dcrenshaw How about playing music for free at a comedy club... Is it okay to screw over the comedian guild? lol Seriously, it's just as bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Locky Posted April 4, 2005 Members Share Posted April 4, 2005 Well you guys are the first musicians I've ever heard of who opposed the idea. But I think I'll stick with the feedback the fans have given us. Good Luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted April 5, 2005 Members Share Posted April 5, 2005 Originally posted by Locky Well you guys are the first musicians I've ever heard of who opposed the idea. But I think I'll stick with the feedback the fans have given us. Good Luck. Remember high school and the girls who "gave it away" and how well they were treated and thought of? Obviously, we're also the only professional musicians you've ever talked to, as well. Amateurs and your vast legion of fans don't really care about whether or not you're hurting the industry by giving it away...if you thought more highly of yourself and your music, you wouldn't be doing the "cheap slut" act... Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted April 5, 2005 Members Share Posted April 5, 2005 Originally posted by Locky You are still missing the point. I don't aspire to be a pro musican. Play music is just my hobby. If I don't make it then that fine. I make more money then most musicians anyways working as an engineer. I play maybe 25-30 shows a year. Maybe 4-5 are for free. You guys are absolutely right about one thing though. I don't care about a word you said, because I can't see the threat in a band playing a charity shows, or a friends birthday party, or simply as a favor, for free. So, how would it be if some independently wealthy engineer decided to take on a couple of projects where you work just for the fun of it, to "get his name out there" (even though he has no intention of "making it" in the business? ) What if there were about, oh, 10 or so engineers in your area doing the same thing? Do you not see how that would possibly affect the value of what you do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Outkaster Posted April 5, 2005 Members Share Posted April 5, 2005 Originally posted by Locky Well you guys are the first musicians I've ever heard of who opposed the idea. But I think I'll stick with the feedback the fans have given us. Good Luck. {censored} you and your fan base ok, no one cares. You really are naive. Get off this board go get alot of experience and come talk to us in ten years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members miles to go Posted April 5, 2005 Members Share Posted April 5, 2005 Let me preface this by saying that this is not meant to be a troll, an insult or an accusation. But I would like to offer some food for thought. Here's my question for those on the "don't give it away" side of the debate: Are you offering something to the club owners/venues/etc. that they can't get from the cheap/free guys? For a typical bar or club, the discussion begins and ends with butts in seats, beers in hands, and dollars in the till. I would hope that anyone trying to be a professional (or even semi-pro) musician would have a better way to deliver these than the casual hobbyist, through a better product, more marketing, whatever. Somebody has undercut you. That's nothing new in the business world. It's up to you to demonstrate that there's value in hiring you, the higher priced alternative. Yes, the market has changed. Show me an industry that hasn't over the last couple decades. It's cheaper and easier than ever before to buy some gear, record a demo, throw up a webpage and call yourself a band. How are you adapting to the change? I don't doubt that it's harder to make a buck playing live, but it's easier to produce and sell CD's, it's cheaper and easier to get merch made, the internet has openend up new audiences, etc. In the past I have recorded demos, photographed weddings, built web pages and yes, even played gigs - all for free or cost of my materials. I am not, nor do I wish to be, established as a professional in any of these areas. In each case, I arguably took work away from someone trying to earn a buck in these areas. In each case, with the possible exception of playing music, I provided a sub-par product by pro standards. But in each case, the end result was good enough for the client. These are hobbies to me and I'll only continue so long as the enjoyment I receive outweighs the hassles and costs. However, I lose no sleep over the effect I have on the market. I get what I need out of the deal, as do my "clients." If the professionals can't compete with my offerings, I'd say they need to re-evaluate their business plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Locky Posted April 5, 2005 Members Share Posted April 5, 2005 ^^ exactly. I never thought a charity show would anger so many people. I also never realized that playing live music was limited only to those who are making a living from it. Perhaps its the bitterness of you guys being "professionals" in a volatile industry, or the fact that I've never heard of any of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted April 6, 2005 Members Share Posted April 6, 2005 Yes, the market has changed. Show me an industry that hasn't over the last couple decades. Agreed, but the change we're discussing here is self-inflicted. What you have here is a bunch of thoughtless weekend wannabes who don't see any harm in going to a bar and offering to play for free. And what we're saying is that attitude may be fine for the wannabe weekend warrior, but he's taking food off the table of working musicians. This kind of behaivior drives the wage base down for everyone. Ironically, many of the guys doing this are the same ones who will bitch about corporations outsourcing jobs or hiring illegals in the day job work force for cheap labor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted April 6, 2005 Members Share Posted April 6, 2005 Originally posted by miles to go Let me preface this by saying that this is not meant to be a troll, an insult or an accusation. But I would like to offer some food for thought.Here's my question for those on the "don't give it away" side of the debate: Are you offering something to the club owners/venues/etc. that they can't get from the cheap/free guys? For a typical bar or club, the discussion begins and ends with butts in seats, beers in hands, and dollars in the till. I would hope that anyone trying to be a professional (or even semi-pro) musician would have a better way to deliver these than the casual hobbyist, through a better product, more marketing, whatever. Somebody has undercut you. That's nothing new in the business world. It's up to you to demonstrate that there's value in hiring you, the higher priced alternative.Yes, the market has changed. Show me an industry that hasn't over the last couple decades. It's cheaper and easier than ever before to buy some gear, record a demo, throw up a webpage and call yourself a band. How are you adapting to the change? I don't doubt that it's harder to make a buck playing live, but it's easier to produce and sell CD's, it's cheaper and easier to get merch made, the internet has openend up new audiences, etc. In the past I have recorded demos, photographed weddings, built web pages and yes, even played gigs - all for free or cost of my materials. I am not, nor do I wish to be, established as a professional in any of these areas. In each case, I arguably took work away from someone trying to earn a buck in these areas. In each case, with the possible exception of playing music, I provided a sub-par product by pro standards. But in each case, the end result was good enough for the client. These are hobbies to me and I'll only continue so long as the enjoyment I receive outweighs the hassles and costs. However, I lose no sleep over the effect I have on the market. I get what I need out of the deal, as do my "clients." If the professionals can't compete with my offerings, I'd say they need to re-evaluate their business plan. Well, the Locky's of the world, who will knowingly give away what they can't sell, are the preferred "cheap spread" that allow venue owners to keep from having to pay a decent wage to professionals... Please refer to my comparison to the girls you take home to meet Mom vs. the girls you take out back to the van. Which would YOU marry? Which one do you want to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted April 6, 2005 Members Share Posted April 6, 2005 Originally posted by Locky ^^ exactly. I never thought a charity show would anger so many people. I also never realized that playing live music was limited only to those who are making a living from it.Perhaps its the bitterness of you guys being "professionals" in a volatile industry, or the fact that I've never heard of any of you. Wow, so now you're playing charities, which are shows to raise money for needy causes. You sure have changed your tune from this, when you said: "I offer to play for free when I really just want to play. If I'm taking a gig away from another band who wants to be paid. Well screw em." So, you're either a phony, or just a lying sack of crap. Either one, you're pretty dispicable. IMO, of course. The fact you haven't heard of any of us is irrelevant, but one thing is fairly certain: guys like you are only making it harder for the decent musician who dedicates his life to his craft and depends on what he makes to eat to do so. But if you ever want to know why so much music that comes out is generic crap, just realize that mass appeal is the only way guys can make a living when so many wannabe whores are giving it away. Whatever, dude. I'm done with you. Rock on with your shortsighted selfish little self. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Locky Posted April 6, 2005 Members Share Posted April 6, 2005 Well if you are good enough you shouldn't have to worry about bands playing for free. If you are good enough, there will be a demand for you talents that will surpass my "amateur" band. So don't feel so threatened. You have to understand that you work in a business where bands like mine may do the old free show when we feel like it or are asked to. Don't try and compare the music industry to engineering. I choose engineer because it is a secure industry that pays very well. You knew damn well what you were getting into when you decided to become a musican. If I am taking food off the table of a musican's family, well thats fine with me, I'll sleep at night, because I believe that if someone is trying to feel their family soley as muscians then they are very responsible people. Its like saying, "well I'm gonna feed my family by getting in the NHL, or winning the lottery" its a tough a industry. Don't bitch to me because the path I chose is more secure then yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members miles to go Posted April 6, 2005 Members Share Posted April 6, 2005 Originally posted by Terry Allan Hall Well, the Locky's of the world, who will knowingly give away what they can't sell, are the preferred "cheap spread" that allow venue owners to keep from having to pay a decent wage to professionals... Please refer to my comparison to the girls you take home to meet Mom vs. the girls you take out back to the van. Which would YOU marry? Which one do you want to be? Well, the girls who would and could sell what they don't think they should be giving away are probably not the ones I'll take home to Mom, either. In my case, I've done the selling of my craft. Along with it, I've done the schlepping of PA and lights, playing the same tired "classics" or current tripe to a roomful of disaffected drunks. Sure I could go home with $100 in my pocket, but I wasn't very happy. I already had a job and didn't want another one. What I did want was a creative release, a social outlet and a little judicious ego stroking. So I gathered some like-minded friends, wrote some tunes and started playing with the idea that we'd probably never break even financially. But, we were playing on our own terms and I don't regret the decision at all. I don't think of it as devaluing my music as much as assigning value to my happiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Locky Posted April 6, 2005 Members Share Posted April 6, 2005 ^^ exactly, its a hobby, something done for fun. There shouldn't be restriction to though who use to as a means of income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted April 6, 2005 Members Share Posted April 6, 2005 Originally posted by Locky Well if you are good enough you shouldn't have to worry about bands playing for free. If you are good enough, there will be a demand for you talents that will surpass my "amateur" band. So don't feel so threatened. You have to understand that you work in a business where bands like mine may do the old free show when we feel like it or are asked to. Don't try and compare the music industry to engineering. I choose engineer because it is a secure industry that pays very well. You knew damn well what you were getting into when you decided to become a musican. If I am taking food off the table of a musican's family, well thats fine with me, I'll sleep at night, because I believe that if someone is trying to feel their family soley as muscians then they are very responsible people. Its like saying, "well I'm gonna feed my family by getting in the NHL, or winning the lottery" its a tough a industry. Don't bitch to me because the path I chose is more secure then yours. Translation: "I got mine. Screw you." When did you sell your soul and how much did you get for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dumfucrs Posted April 6, 2005 Members Share Posted April 6, 2005 I usually like to play for free. Does anyone else here do that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Locky Posted April 6, 2005 Members Share Posted April 6, 2005 Sold my soul? Got a real job more like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Outkaster Posted April 6, 2005 Members Share Posted April 6, 2005 Who the hell put's prices of their gear on their signature? I can tell your maturity level. What a nerd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Locky Posted April 6, 2005 Members Share Posted April 6, 2005 wow thats a reach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members KeysBear Posted April 7, 2005 Members Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by Outkaster Who the hell put's prices of their gear on their signature? KeysBear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Outkaster Posted April 7, 2005 Members Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by Locky wow thats a reach Reach nothing it looks stupid! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted April 7, 2005 Members Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by Outkaster Reach nothing it looks stupid! Or at least, desperate for attention...much like every other thing he's put into this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted April 7, 2005 Members Share Posted April 7, 2005 Originally posted by Locky Sold my soul? Got a real job more like it. Oh, I have a job, too. I just don't use it as an excuse to screw other people out of theirs like you do, simply becuase you're too stupid to realize that this is a business, and you're too soulless to care that you're screwing other guys by playing gigs for free. It's even more sad that you don't view being a musician as a 'real job.' Most hobbyists don't. Party on, rock star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pianobody Posted April 7, 2005 Members Share Posted April 7, 2005 My first gig was when I was 9. I played the Pink Panther Theme and Music Box Dancer in front of a captive audience of 350. Terrifying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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