smallest effective cab?

[isaac42]

Originally posted by Emprov I'm wrong because I think that it's a function of speaker area? Just going from personal experience. I tried for a long time to go with smaller cabs with less speaker area and I found that the perceived volume wasn't as great as a bigger cab with more speaker area. Granted, smaller cabs have less volume which plays a huge role but I can't help but think that more surface area is going to be perceived as being louder in most situations.

Why can't you help it? Truth is, there are two factors involved in what you're perceiving. One is either efficiency or sensitivity, the other is frequency response. Neither has any necessary relation to surface area.

[Emprov]

Originally posted by isaac42 Why can't you help it? Truth is, there are two factors involved in what you're perceiving. One is either efficiency or sensitivity, the other is frequency response. Neither has any necessary relation to surface area.

 

 

So your saying that surface area and perceived volume have nothing to do with one another?

[Narcosynthesis]

Originally posted by JeffBass A single 12" Avatar NEO with 200-300 watts pushing it would sound fantastic, plus you can always add another one later if the band is needs more volume. The best sound in the world is a single, 12" cab in my opinion.

So if I went for a 1x12, what would I need to know to build it?
ie, physical size (and how to minimise it) and any porting or design issues I would want to look at to make it work as best as possibe?

And what would be the reccommended speakers to use? Buying an avatar would be nice, but I am at the wrong side of the atlantic and would get murdered on shipping even if they did sell internationally

David

[isaac42]

Originally posted by Emprov So your saying that surface area and perceived volume have nothing to do with one another?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Unless you're listening with your eyes.

[RSBro]

Schroeder 1210...???

Got one if ya want it!!

[Emprov]

Originally posted by isaac42 Yes, that's what I'm saying. Unless you're listening with your eyes.

 

Well, Fernando Valenzuela used to "breathe" through his eyes....

[isaac42]

Originally posted by Narcosynthesis So if I went for a 1x12, what would I need to know to build it? ie, physical size (and how to minimise it) and any porting or design issues I would want to look at to make it work as best as possibe? And what would be the reccommended speakers to use? Buying an avatar would be nice, but I am at the wrong side of the atlantic and would get murdered on shipping even if they did sell internationally David

You need to know the Qt, Fs and Vas of the driver you're going to use, and have an idea of what you want the frequency response to look like.

 

If that's not practical, we can discuss what you want it to sound like, preferably with examples of what cabinets you like and don't like, and go from there. It would probably help a lot to find out what drivers are available to you.

[L. Ron Hoover]

Originally posted by isaac42 Yes, that's what I'm saying. Unless you're listening with your eyes.

 

 

Yep. Drivers with the same cone area can have radically different properties, so more surface area doesn't necessarily translate into more perceived volume. Now if you hold the driver parameters constant, a cab with 2 drivers will be louder than a cabinet with one of them, but that's only indirectly related to surface area.

[Emprov]

Originally posted by L. Ron Hoover Yep. Drivers with the same cone area can have radically different properties, so more surface area doesn't necessarily translate into more perceived volume. Now if you hold the driver parameters constant, a cab with 2 drivers will be louder than a cabinet with one of them, but that's only indirectly related to surface area.

 

 

I understand that there are a ton of things that goes into making a cab go boom but I still feel, (based on cab experiementing and building a few speakers here and there), that surface area is definitely still a major part of the equation. And there's actual volume and perceived volume. Put a bunch of speakers vs one speaker up (all other things being equal) and the bunch of speakers will sound louder. They won't actually be louder but I'm guessing that they're be perceived as being louder. That's all I'm saying.

[isaac42]

Originally posted by Emprov I understand that there are a ton of things that goes into making a cab go boom but I still feel, (based on cab experiementing and building a few speakers here and there), that surface area is definitely still a major part of the equation. And there's actual volume and perceived volume. Put a bunch of speakers vs one speaker up (all other things being equal) and the bunch of speakers will sound louder. They won't actually be louder but I'm guessing that they're be perceived as being louder. That's all I'm saying.

Lots of people have thought this way over the years. They've even come up with scientific-sounding explanations for it, mainly having to do with radiation resistance. However, it's been completely discredited by solid acoustic science.

 

There just aren't very many ways to make a speaker sound different. Frequency response is the biggest. Radiation pattern is another, and that's related to driver size. Efficiency and sensitivity have no effect if you control for output and stay within the systems' linear operating band. Distortion is another. And that's about it.

 

I'd be willing to wager a large amount that neither you nor anyone else, could tell the difference between a single 18" and four 10"s in a square pattern (the usual setup) if they were equalized for frequency response and outputs were matched to within 0.1 dB.

[BoundandBlocked]

Originally posted by Thunderbroom Great amp. I have one. If you can get it for that price, it's a steal!

 

 

 

I thought you were selling/had sold your BA-115.

[Emprov]

Originally posted by isaac42 Lots of people have thought this way over the years. They've even come up with scientific-sounding explanations for it, mainly having to do with radiation resistance. However, it's been completely discredited by solid acoustic science.

 

 

How has greater perceived volume levels vs actual volume levels been discredited? Any links?

 

Edit: been thinking about the freq response thing. Ok, as a follow-up question: which freq's, if any, are percevied as being more loud? May be a completely moronic question but I'm really, really curious about this and I don't have the kind of time that it'd take to google my life away.

[isaac42]

Originally posted by Emprov How has greater perceived volume levels vs actual volume levels been discredited? Any links? Edit: been thinking about the freq response thing. Ok, as a follow-up question: which freq's, if any, are percevied as being more loud? May be a completely moronic question but I'm really, really curious about this and I don't have the kind of time that it'd take to google my life away.

Nor do I, so I can't/won't go look up what I've picked up over decades of reading. However, here are the Fletcher-Munson Equal Loudness curves which make clear which frequencies sound louder:

Mainly, those frequencies from 1K to 6K, centered on 3K.

[Narcosynthesis]

Originally posted by isaac42 You need to know the Qt, Fs and Vas of the driver you're going to use, and have an idea of what you want the frequency response to look like. If that's not practical, we can discuss what you want it to sound like, preferably with examples of what cabinets you like and don't like, and go from there. It would probably help a lot to find out what drivers are available to you.

 

 

This is the thing, I don't really know what is available (in the UK) and haven't really been able to compare cabs or anything - this is for my first 'proper' bass amp - for tones and so on, rock and roll really, things like Muse would be one of my bigger aims, and also stuff like indie and some punk rock

 

David

[isaac42]

Originally posted by Narcosynthesis This is the thing, I don't really know what is available (in the UK) and haven't really been able to compare cabs or anything - this is for my first 'proper' bass amp - for tones and so on, rock and roll really, things like Muse would be one of my bigger aims, and also stuff like indie and some punk rock David

Here're some suggestions, then. Go to all of the music stores in our area, and check out what drivers they have. Don't worry so much about models, but brands. If they carry one model, odds are they can get any other model you might want.

 

Check out used gear and auction sites, like ebay UK.

 

Ask around.

 

Check out the DIY List at http://www.diyspeakers.net/ Lots of very knowledgeable people there, from all around the world. Emprov, they can point you to the science that disproves the speaker area fallacy, too.

[Emprov]

Originally posted by isaac42 Nor do I, so I can't/won't go look up what I've picked up over decades of reading.

Slacker.

[Decker]

For anybody who thinks they might be interested in building speakers, get thee to www.audioasylum.com and go to the high efficiency speaker forum. There thou wilst find a bunch of people who debate many of the same issues daily. Getting a speaker to go loud and low is of interest to DIY hi-fi folks, and they are always happy to share tips and tricks and opinions and whatnot. For what its worth, I believe that there is no decent substitute for CUBIC inches, i.e., cone diameter times displacement. More displacement = lower distortion, all other things being equal. (which they never are) To me, small speakers compress too much, and sound awful when driven hard. My home hi-fi uses three 15" Dayton MI speakers as subwoofers. I would double that if I had the room. The downside is that big speakers need a big box. Sometimes, bigger really is better. YMMV

[isaac42]

Originally posted by Emprov Slacker.

Originally posted by isaac42 Emprov, they can point you to the science that disproves the speaker area fallacy, too.

[isaac42]

Originally posted by Decker For anybody who thinks they might be interested in building speakers, get thee to www.audioasylum.com and go to the high efficiency speaker forum. There thou wilst find a bunch of people who debate many of the same issues daily. Getting a speaker to go loud and low is of interest to DIY hi-fi folks, and they are always happy to share tips and tricks and opinions and whatnot. For what its worth, I believe that there is no decent substitute for CUBIC inches, i.e., cone diameter times displacement. More displacement = lower distortion, all other things being equal. (which they never are) To me, small speakers compress too much, and sound awful when driven hard. My home hi-fi uses three 15" Dayton MI speakers as subwoofers. I would double that if I had the room. The downside is that big speakers need a big box. Sometimes, bigger really is better. YMMV

As car enthusiasts say, "there is no replacement for displacement." However, Decker, displacement is cubic inches, area times throw, Sd x Xmax.

The physics of efficiency are well-established. compactness, low frequency extension and efficiency are all interrelated and mutually exclusive. If you want more of any one, you will have to give up something in the other two, though not necessarily both.

If you want a small cabinet, you have to accept that it will be inefficient, have poor low frequency extension, or both. If you want great low frequency extension, the cabinet will be large, inefficient, or both. If you want an efficient cabinet, it will be large, have poor low frequency extension, or both. There are no exceptions. This is what is known as Hoffman's Iron Law.

[Decker]

Yeah. What he said. (damn nitpicker!) Personally, I prefer Bootsy's Rubber Band to Hoffman's Iron Law.

[Emprov]

Originally posted by Decker Yeah. What he said. (damn nitpicker!) Personally, I prefer Bootsy's Rubber Band to Hoffman's Iron Law.

Ya, he's kind of a nitpicker. It gets really interesting when he and Burdizzos get going against each other about this stuff.

And as far as laws go, Emprov's Seemingly Plausible Explanations trumps 'em all.

[isaac42]

I admit, I can be a nitpicker. From my point of view, though, it's a matter of keeping things factual.

And yeah, Burdizzos and I have had some interesting discussions. I hope he's enjoyed them as much as I have!

[John S. Shinal]

 

Originally posted by Narcosynthesis I was thinking of a diy, shipping and so on pretty much rules out buying from the US, and a diy lets me do it as I wish

 

 

If you are doing DIY, then look for a speaker that has a V(as) value listed between 80-120 liters, and a low resonance of 40Hz (low E) or 32 Hz (low B). High SPL efficiency means getting the most out of limited power.

 

The (now discontinued) Eminence Delta 12 LF is ideal in that size cabinet, but P. Audio also makes some candidates, as do Beyma (generally expensive), Fane, B&C and probably Celestion.

 

It's pretty hard to get much performance out of 15s in a cab smaller than 110 liters - you lose most of the lows.

 

There are a lot of specs available here :

http://www.usspeaker.com/

 

And good speaker modeling software here :

http://www.linearteam.dk/

 

Both versions of WinISD are good, but the Pro is a lot picker about specs being exactly right, and therefore a little trickier to use with specs you enter.

 

If you end up with a great result, let us know !

[TCEDDIA]

Try Eden cabs: 210xlt or one or two 112xlt. Small and loud.

[Lil' Dog]

building a cabinet that actually sounds good and is better than a company that already makes cabs is hard to do...

it can be more expensive than a new purchase!

economy of scale usually dictates they will get wood, speakers, and hardware/covering material in bulk and much cheaper than the average consumer can purchase.

and design is so key...

i have seen so many massive homemade boxes...
could just be built into the back of a pickup truck!!

it may sound like dookie...

i have some gear i like alot that others think sounds like dookie...

(could be my advertising campaign:
buy my gear it's the dookiest!!)

that all said i love DIY and wouldn't want to discourage anyone... but lots of factors go into designing a box that works and sounds good...
sometimes it can defy logic what does work... and doesn't.

a tube amp is considered by electrical engineers to be a horribly antiquated and ineffecient design...
luckily there are those who specialize in musical equipment design or many guitarists would cry.

that aside...
used stuff is everywhere collecting dust!!!
in fact some folks pay money to store great gear they never use (ahem... i resemble that comment)
it weighs to much, there tastes have changed, they got something new, and uncle gave it to them the list is endless.

oh, and what can we buy NEW with under 400 bucks???

an avatar neo two ten might go far in most bars. ($249 i believe)
most will attest they sound good.

i have a friend who has played most every kinda gear imaginable
and he said he loved his DR. bass cabs and recommended them to me over my bag ends (i didn't listen).
i believe they were affordable to boot.

if money is an issue i bet an avatar with a crate powerblock ($99) will get you on the gig fer cheap...
all brandie new and warrantied!!!

you can add a better head later...
and more cabs...
if you need to.

if you are playing really loud
with a pounding drummer
and a wall of guitar stacks
with deaf old guys
or deaf young guys
or those who just don't care...

you are gonna need lots amp
and lotsa speakers to keep up.

whatever you decide have fun experimenting!