Members hyperstationjr Posted May 2, 2008 Members Share Posted May 2, 2008 So I've lurked the bass forums a little bit, and I just don't think I'm going to get an answer without asking directly. I'm in a funny situation, because I'm starting to play bass more, and will be getting some gigs with a new band. Thing is, right now I'm playing through a wimpy Fender Rumble, it has neither the power nor the tone I'm looking for. To make matters worse, our guitarist also uses a bass amp with his rig, so we have to manage THAT somehow... And the icing on the cake is I also play keys, though not usually at the same time, at least not yet. Mostly I play a lot of fuzz/overdriven bass, as we play something between noisy garage rock and heavy shoegazing, so lots of effects, noises, feedback, etc. So thats my situation, and I need a rig to compliment it somehow. My thinking was, due to the fact that I also play keys, I'd need something that can accommodate the frequency range of both the bass and the highs of the keys, so I imagine my best bet would be use a Stereo PA sort of setup with 2 10"-15" speakers, maybe even a custom cab with two speakers and separate inputs for each. Then I'd run my bass and pedal board into a Preamp (maybe a Tech21?) rack, and run that into 1 channel of my PA. The I'd have a mixer summing up all my keyboards and run that Mono to the other channel of my PA, and into the other speaker. I don't have any real knowledge of PA systems or anything, so I'm not even 100% that this would really do what I think it should do. Does ANYONE run a setup similar to this? Am I going way too far for a semi-beginner gig rig? Oh, and as for pricing, I would rather have to wait longer to buy gear that is more expensive but a much better fit, than buying for now and wasting cash. I have a rig that WORKS in the most basic sense, so this isn't a rush job, but I imagine I would end up spending about $350-500 for a new bass, $150-200 for a preamp, $350-500 for a PA, $500-600 for a cab, and about $100-150 for a tuner. Any advice, pointers, or links to any relevant information would be MUCH appreciated, because some how I think I'm in way over my head a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted May 2, 2008 Members Share Posted May 2, 2008 Too complicated. Buy a dedicated bass rig, and a nice powered monitor for the keyboards.C7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted May 2, 2008 Members Share Posted May 2, 2008 Or, if you're playing lots of gigs where you have a nice PA to run through, just buy a pair of DI boxes, one for each instrument.C7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hyperstationjr Posted May 2, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 2, 2008 Portability is sort of a criteria here, as I don't have a huge van to lug all of this around. At best a hatchback, or the subway w/ a dolly... So having two large speakers would be killer... The other thing is, so far, we are playing a lot of "newer" venues, the kind that don't splurge on silly things like house PA's, at least nothing that could handle anything more than some vocals, so we have to make the sound ourselves pretty much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted May 2, 2008 Members Share Posted May 2, 2008 Subway? Try these: For bass + For keys. You could haul those two on a regular dolly, combined weight about 120lbs, combined price about $1000. The bass amp is expandable so you can add an additional cab later, and you can add another powered monitor if you decide you need to for the keys. If you overthink the rigs, you'll end up spending money on {censored} you don't need, and waste a bunch of time on getting it to sound right. Plus, if you play a gig without keys or bass, you don't have to haul the same bulky system around. C7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gspointer Posted May 2, 2008 Members Share Posted May 2, 2008 Why does your guitard use a bass amp? How many watts is it? If you are trying to compliment and not compete with him tell us what freq. range he is not already covering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ezweave Posted May 2, 2008 Members Share Posted May 2, 2008 So I've lurked the bass forums a little bit, and I just don't think I'm going to get an answer without asking directly. I'm in a funny situation, because I'm starting to play bass more, and will be getting some gigs with a new band. Thing is, right now I'm playing through a wimpy Fender Rumble, it has neither the power nor the tone I'm looking for. To make matters worse, our guitarist also uses a bass amp with his rig, so we have to manage THAT somehow... And the icing on the cake is I also play keys, though not usually at the same time, at least not yet.Mostly I play a lot of fuzz/overdriven bass, as we play something between noisy garage rock and heavy shoegazing, so lots of effects, noises, feedback, etc.So thats my situation, and I need a rig to compliment it somehow.... Buy the amp first for the bass, and use an A-B footswitch to change inputs on the fly. The SVT Classic is used by gobs of synth players (the Rentals, super-poppy guys like Motion City Soundtrack... I could rattle off a really long list of smaller CO and west coast indie bands that do the same thing). The other approach would be to do something like get one of those old Peavey PA heads (like this one) that is the same form factor as a bass head and use an 8x10 (whatever you can get for say... $700-800, a used Ampeg would be choice). Anything you can play bass on, you can use as a synth amp, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hyperstationjr Posted May 3, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 It's a funny situation because the band WAS a 2 piece (guitarist/vocalist and a drummer/vocalist) and so to compensate for the lack of instruments he incorporated a 450watt bass amp with a 4 x 10" Cab (one of those behringer heads/cabs, it sounds OK but I know it's going to crap out one day...). But the amp I'm using (or borrowing really) is only a 100watt combo with 1 15", so I have a hard time even cutting through during practice. That can all be worked out with just some level adjusting, we are still working out the kinks. The thing I am really concerned with is the gig situation, having to lug stuff around, and also having a powerful enough rig to use on small to medium sized gigs. I guess I am also concerned with the LOOK of the whole thing too, and so I guess even though I'm playing keys, I'd like to look more like a "rock" band than a wedding band (I've used those peavey/mackie/JBL PA's, they usually sound great, they just always remind me of wedding bands...). That's why I was thinking of building a custom cab, so it would look pretty bad ass, have two separate speakers for the bass and keys, and still be portable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hyperstationjr Posted May 3, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 Buy the amp first for the bass, and use an A-B footswitch to change inputs on the fly. The SVT Classic is used by gobs of synth players (the Rentals, super-poppy guys like Motion City Soundtrack... I could rattle off a really long list of smaller CO and west coast indie bands that do the same thing).The other approach would be to do something like get one of those old Peavey PA heads (like this one) that is the same form factor as a bass head and use an 8x10 (whatever you can get for say... $700-800, a used Ampeg would be choice).Anything you can play bass on, you can use as a synth amp, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. See thats what I would LOVE to do but I guess I am worried about the frequency response of a Bass rig compared to what I do with synths. If I could just pick up a heavy duty bass head w/ a nice 2 x 15"/10" cab that I could play keys out of, I'd be fine, that would solve a lot of my issues, I guess I'm just worried about destroying the thing with all the funny synth sounds. Would just a high frequency cutoff be enough to remedy that? Cause {censored} if thats all I need, then I would save myself LOADS of headaches... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ezweave Posted May 3, 2008 Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 Lolz... I'm telling you, because this is how it's done. Just build a classic rock stack, along the lines of an SVT Classic with an Ampeg 8x10, foot switch it... it will work, if you don't believe I can dig up some live shots of bands that do the same thing. I know exactly the type of music you are playing and I've been doing it for a while, I'm not so sure everyone here gets what you want (no offense, HCBF, but I don't figure there are a lot of Pitchfork/Stereogum/Skyscraper readers on the boards). Do the old Peavey 4-channel PA, if you don't want a footswitch (and its cheap) and run the new tri-channel floor version of the Sansamp DI. An Ampeg 8x10 will totally cover your bases and you can find used ones for $700 or so, check your local craigslist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ezweave Posted May 3, 2008 Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 See thats what I would LOVE to do but I guess I am worried about the frequency response of a Bass rig compared to what I do with synths. If I could just pick up a heavy duty bass head w/ a nice 2 x 15"/10" cab that I could play keys out of, I'd be fine, that would solve a lot of my issues, I guess I'm just worried about destroying the thing with all the funny synth sounds. Would just a high frequency cutoff be enough to remedy that? Cause {censored} if thats all I need, then I would save myself LOADS of headaches... You won't. I'm running through a de-labeled Peavey 8x10 (at the moment, thought it would be lighter than the old Ampeg, its not... so I'm going back), using a bass with gobs of feedback, wah pedals, a digitech whammy, swapping the audio feed off of an old Moog Prodigy (when I can borrow it), spilling beer, running into it, loading into cars, jumping off of it... And it works fine. I don't know who worked you up about frequencies, but they are messing with you (or self-important asshats who read brochures instead of play, haha). Just like me (j/k, I have a gig tomorrow) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hyperstationjr Posted May 3, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 EZWEAVE, that sounds killer, and I have to admit, I am wetting myself at the thought of an 8 x 10".... I have to bring a rack for my synth stuff, so I will probably also add a rack tuner, and a rack mixer just for the keys and either A/B them or y-cable them, unless for some reason that's just a terrible idea... Any word on specific model numbers for the head and cab? What are you using if you don't mind me asking, cause if your rig can handle a Prodigy then it can take whatever I'd throw at it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ezweave Posted May 3, 2008 Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 EZWEAVE, that sounds killer, and I have to admit, I am wetting myself at the thought of an 8 x 10"....I have to bring a rack for my synth stuff, so I will probably also add a rack tuner, and a rack mixer just for the keys and either A/B them or y-cable them, unless for some reason that's just a terrible idea...Any word on specific model numbers for the head and cab? What are you using if you don't mind me asking, cause if your rig can handle a Prodigy then it can take whatever I'd throw at it... Not sure about the model number of the Peavey, it has been discontinued for some time (I also threw out all the badges and am putting proper speaker cloth on it). Lemme go check. (Stairs... darkness... aha!) It's a late 90s (I think) Peavey 810-TVX that I picked up for a song. It will work, but it's power handling isn't great (400W @ 4 ohms RMS, 800W peak). It works for my rack and tube heads from 100-200W, which is what I use most of the time. But I play really "up" in the mix too, so I don't need as much juice (if I was tuned down two steps on a 5-string, that wouldn't cut it). An Ampeg 810-SVE works fine for that as well (thats what I did use, but I thought the cheap Peavey would be much lighter, without the baffles and such). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hyperstationjr Posted May 3, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 Sounds good. I'll do some homework and research those. There are tons of used shops, new shops, and craig'slist to pick up stuff in NYC so I should be able to find something on the economic side.. Thanks for everyones help and timely responses, you guys probably saved me about a grand and an ass load of headaches... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ec437 Posted May 3, 2008 Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 See thats what I would LOVE to do but I guess I am worried about the frequency response of a Bass rig compared to what I do with synths. If I could just pick up a heavy duty bass head w/ a nice 2 x 15"/10" cab that I could play keys out of, I'd be fine, that would solve a lot of my issues, I guess I'm just worried about destroying the thing with all the funny synth sounds. Would just a high frequency cutoff be enough to remedy that? Cause {censored} if thats all I need, then I would save myself LOADS of headaches... High frequencies will NEVER hurt a bass amp. On the other hand, low frequencies will FUBAR (or is that BSUBAR?) a guitar amp in short order. Listen to us. We know of what we speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted May 3, 2008 Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 High frequencies will NEVER hurt a bass amp. On the other hand, low frequencies will FUBAR (or is that BSUBAR?) a guitar amp in short order. Listen to us. We know of what we speak. Bass amps actually work quite well for keys, they're designed to be full-range. When I worked at GuitarX I sold several bass rigs to keys players; keyboards can produce lower frequencies than a bass, and even some PA speakers have trouble reproducing them. You certainly don't need an 8x10 and an SVT to pull it off, either. No offense, ezweave, but even a Pitchfork/Stereogum/Skyscraper reader would have read that he has to take it on the subway. If you've got a few buxxx to drop, this combo would be perfect for you, since it has nice wheels on it and a extending handle: You'd be surprised how much volume a 2x10 can produce if you're driving it with enough power, such as is the case with this combo. C7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ezweave Posted May 3, 2008 Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 ... You certainly don't need an 8x10 and an SVT to pull it off, either. No offense, ezweave, but even a Pitchfork/Stereogum/Skyscraper reader would have read that he has to take it on the subway. ... Haha, that's only an issue if you live in Williamsburg. Since Austin is the "new mecca" that's not a problem. Of course, if you did live in Williamsburg, you would probably be a dance-rock/noise-combo that plays everything through two old Sunn)) cabinets with torn woofers, while you were spilling Old Style on your red American Apparel jeans, trimming your new wave mullet, and smoking Gauloises... this is, of course, in between talking about the last Aids Wolf album and keeping your Gazelles from sliding off your nose. And when I say Williamsburg, insert any Brooklyn-vibe scene, like our beloved Hi-Dive Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted May 3, 2008 Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 Haha, that's only an issue if you live in Williamsburg. Since Austin is the "new mecca" that's not a problem. Of course, if you did live in Williamsburg, you would probably be a dance-rock/noise-combo that plays everything through two old Sunn)) cabinets with torn woofers, while you were spilling Old Style on your red American Apparel jeans, trimming your new wave mullet, and smoking Gauloises... this is, of course, in between talking about the last Aids Wolf album and keeping your Gazelles from sliding off your nose. And when I say Williamsburg, insert any Brooklyn-vibe scene, like our beloved Hi-Dive Austin is the new mecca for hipsters? Those Hi-Dive trustfunders need to have a Hajj ASAP, then. Jugghaid's metal band played a show at the Hi-Dive a couple of months ago (not sure how they pulled that off), and at the start of the night the place was filthy with the PBR crowd. As soon as they realized they weren't getting indie rock, they got in their Saabs and on their Aprilias and sped off to whatever the hell the other trendy hipster bar is on Broadway. And they took their snobby women with them, unfortunately... C7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Kindness Posted May 3, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 3, 2008 Bass amps actually work quite well for keys, they're designed to be full-range. One of the many reasons I went with Acmes a few years back was because they pull triple duty as bass cabs, keys cabs and PA cabs. There are very few bass cabs that can pull that off as well as the Acmes, but most bass cabs do an alright job of it. For this type of rig, I'd grab a solid state head and a cabinet with a dedicated midrange driver. That said, I've played synth through an SVT into an 810... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crescent Seven Posted May 3, 2008 Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 For this type of rig, I'd grab a solid state head and a cabinet with a dedicated midrange driver. That said, I've played synth through an SVT into an 810... I'm sure that rig kills with a synth. Probably sounds better than a bass, I would think. Plus, when you're trying to look hip in the scene, there's no substitute for an 8x10 and an SVT. Which is presumably why ezweave took the logo off of his Peavey fridge, so that he wouldn't lose any hard won scene cred. C7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hyperstationjr Posted May 3, 2008 Author Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 I'm not too into buying "for now" gear. I really do like the idea of the SVT or similar amp head (though I need to do more homework on them...) so would, say picking up a 2 x15" or a 4 x 10" cab work, perhaps something I could daisy chain with another cab later on? I'm not sure if bass cabs work like that, but that would be ideal, that way I could still have a powerful enough rig that's not so crazy to lug around, but could still expand on it if ever I really needed the power... Also, my band mates have a Behringer 4 x 10" cab... now, I HATE Behringer, but because I don't like the "buy for now" thing, could I maybe pick up the SVT or similar, run it through the Behringer for the mean while, till I can find a decent cab to run it through? Oh and uhh.. yeah, I'm a little too close to Williamsburg for my own comfort... I feel like I should be wielding a battle ax, just to keep my sanity... Maybe I could incorporate that to my bass... you know.. GWAR style or something, then I could rock, roll and slaughter helpless hipsters with their boat shoes and head bands mercilessly... now THAT sounds like a good time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ezweave Posted May 3, 2008 Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 I'm sure that rig kills with a synth. Probably sounds better than a bass, I would think. Plus, when you're trying to look hip in the scene, there's no substitute for an 8x10 and an SVT. Which is presumably why ezweave took the logo off of his Peavey fridge, so that he wouldn't lose any hard won scene cred. C7 It's true (I can only mock it because I know it so well). If you're any good, you learn to get a rawk sound out of whatever... I am a bit of a snob when it comes to image (it's true), but tone counts too: I hate the newer Peavey badges, they looked teh fug (old Peavey with the points would have looked cool). I'd "moiduh" for an Orange head on a vintage (silver faced) Ampeg 8x10... or one of those 8x10 Marshalls like Matt Sharp used to use. Unlike the aforementioned kids, I had to work through college (one BS, one MS, and in a year or so, one PhD ). My family sure ain't rich and is far more messed up than most of theirs, but I like a challenge The band I'm in now... I don't know we certainly play for a lot of the DU and CC type crowd (i.e. oft-spoilt/artistic leaning private school kids) as well as normal folks, but it's all PBR and tight jeans. Oh well, you like what you like! Ah... Saturday! (PS I still love the Hi Dive, haha.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators isaac42 Posted May 3, 2008 Moderators Share Posted May 3, 2008 High frequencies will NEVER hurt a bass amp.On the other hand, low frequencies will FUBAR (or is that BSUBAR?) a guitar amp in short order.Listen to us. We know of what we speak. The low frequencies won't hurt the guitar amp. The speakers, on the other hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Darkstorm Posted May 3, 2008 Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 Easy solution would be JBL Eons when not using house PA for main sound. For high end solution would suggest Eden Nemesis 1x15 combo and 1x15 ext cab if needing more air movement. The Nemesis 1x15 with comp tweeter doesn better job of balance between low freqs thru highs then the 2x10 as reason from personal experience. Eden Nemesis stuff is also wonderfully lighteweight for hauling around to. Another route would be suitable bass cab with 10 inch drivers and no tweeter since most good 10" bass drivers get plenty of high freq ability to handle guitars and synths. Good for yer guitar player, useing suitable bass speakers does give tighter low end for guitar. Avoid anything with peizo tweeters as they sound real real horrid with any kind of overdrive or distortion. Been useing rigs only suitable for bass, synths, and guitar for several years now myself. Would avoid useing ampeg myself esp for esynth since they just dont handle low freqs with the authority I like to my ears. Concider also running a stereo rig esp for the synths. Running your instruments to your own mixer which then feeds stereo power amp or 2 instrument amps or combos. Panning any mono instruments to center of course. Bass and guitar to processor of choice which runs stereo output to mixer, synths to mixer via their stereo out. Sounds better then mono even if speakers are close together like portable stereo boom box. Instruments to mixer to JBL Eons or pair of Eden Nemesis 1x15 combos as a good choice for killer 2x15 stereo rig for bass, guitar, and synths imo. Or just run your mixer straight to house PA for easiest way with least hauling of gear and great sound to audiance. For little home rig uses KRK powered monitor speakers. In past has used Pair of Peavey Minx 110 bass combos as kewl mini stereo rig too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ezweave Posted May 3, 2008 Members Share Posted May 3, 2008 The low frequencies won't hurt the guitar amp. The speakers, on the other hand... Kind of. What a speaker does with a frequency it can't handle, well I'll side step that discussion and let Guttermouth or another industry specialist field those (if necessary). But let's look at standard tuning: 1 G 97.999 Hz 2 D 73.416 Hz 3 A? 55 Hz 4 E? 41.204 Hz So your frequency range is then from 41-100 Hz you'd like a speaker rated as such. But looking at my favorite guitar speaker (the Vintage 30) you can see that while its rated for 75-5000Hz, it actually still produces sound below that, but the volume levels drop off significantly (pic stolen from Celestion): So handling isn't an "it will blow up issue" as much as it is an "it will sound like crap" issue. It will only blow if your amp happens to generate more power than the speaker can handle, which will blow the speaker (that is the only way speakers "blow"). There is a matter of resonance frequency, but that doesn't really destroy the speaker (on the V30 its right around 75 Hz, a place that guitarists can easily get to). Sounding like crap obviously matters, but there are some guitar amps and even cabs that "handle" a bass just fine (in terms of sounding ok). (It seems like people have this thought that their bass is some kind of weapon and if they shakily plug it into their guitarists stack and pull the E off the fretboard, they are priming to rain destruction... obviously not sounding bad is important, but it's not really a damage thing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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