6550's or kt88's help me decide‏

[misterhinkydink]

I can def. say, without question, that there is a difference in the sound between used and new tubes. I've had many tube amps, and changing tubes always makes a difference in the sound.

 

The difference in tone doesn't mean the tube was bad.

[misterhinkydink]

When I worked at the guitar shop, there was this guy who would come in and buy a 4 pack of tubes every other week. We would special order them, he'd mix and match, he'd change his mind, and he never, ever found his "tone". I asked him if he wanted his worn out tubes anymore, because I'd be happy to take them off his hands. He told me that once he decided he didn't like them, he would just give them to his brother. I bet his brother has a box full of perfectly good tubes, and he's selling them on eBay. Just like I was going to do. C7

 

I buy used tubes on eBay and rarely do I get a bad one.

[In Absentia]

The difference in tone doesn't mean the tube was bad.

 

No, but an old, crusty string that doesn't sound good isn't necessarily a bad string. But I'd still want to change it.

[James Hart]

 

No, but an old, crusty string that doesn't sound good isn't necessarily a bad string. But I'd still want to change it.

 

 

 

sorry, strings and tubes are NOT comparable IMO/E.

 

Tubes just take far to long to wear out when treated right... my Univox guitar combo has the same tubes in it since my grandfather bought it in about 1971. He stuck it in a closet because it stopped sounding good in the 80s. I took it to a tube tech in the early 90s who rebiased it after changing a handful of caps and still sounds as killer as when my Pops was jamming it in the 70s. Same tubes... just had the bias rechecked and reset.

[In Absentia]

 

sorry, strings and tubes are NOT comparable IMO/E. Tubes just take far to long to wear out when treated right... my Univox guitar combo has the same tubes in it since my grandfather bought it in about 1971. He stuck it in a closet because it stopped sounding good in the 80s. I took it to a tube tech in the early 90s who rebiased it after changing a handful of caps and still sounds as killer as when my Pops was jamming it in the 70s. Same tubes... just had the bias rechecked and reset.

 

 

But in your case, the amp wasn't being used, and therefore the tubes were not undergoing the same rigors that an amp that is used would. An SVT that is being used every single day will have tubes that won't sound as good as a fresh set of tubes (regardless of age), in my experience. When I played in my last band, I changed my old 5150 tubes to the exact same brand of tube that was in it, but newer, and the sound was amazing. My friend with the DSL 50 has had similar experiences changing his tubes (EL34s). In fact, I'm betting the the HCAF has tons of skilled and respected musicians that can attest to the difference between worn out tubes and fresh tubes. I've never said that old tubes can't sound good (in fact, in many cases, they are preferred), but that old, used tubes probably won't.

[Grumpy_Polecat]

you can quote me on that.

 

 

Consider yourself quoted.

 

And a +11 to boot!

[isaac42]

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but I'm under the impression that 6550s and KT88s are the same tube. I'm far too unsophisticated to tell one brand from another - if they're working, I love 'em.

 

They're not exactly the same, or, at least, they weren't back in the sixties. I've yet to hear an audible difference between them, myself.

[isaac42]

 

But in your case, the amp wasn't being used, and therefore the tubes were not undergoing the same rigors that an amp that is used would. An SVT that is being used every single day will have tubes that won't sound as good as a fresh set of tubes (regardless of age), in my experience. When I played in my last band, I changed my old 5150 tubes to the exact same brand of tube that was in it, but newer, and the sound was amazing. My friend with the DSL 50 has had similar experiences changing his tubes (EL34s). In fact, I'm betting the the HCAF has tons of skilled and respected musicians that can attest to the difference between worn out tubes and fresh tubes. I've never said that old tubes can't sound good (in fact, in many cases, they are preferred), but that old, used tubes probably won't.

 

 

I would argue that, while they may not sound the same, which one sounds better is personal preference. And the original question was not whether new tubes sound the same as old tubes, it was whether 6550's sound different from KT88's.

 

For the record, I have retubed a couple of my amps with JJ tubes, using KT88's in the power section, and haven't noticed a difference in the tone in either of them.

[Grumpy_Polecat]

 

They're not exactly the same, or, at least, they weren't back in the sixties. I've yet to hear an audible difference between them, myself.

 

 

 

Tomato, tomAHto...

 

That's the perennial problem with such discussions: subjectivity.

 

What shade of blue IS the sky, really?

[pickinatit]

 

Yeah, the guys with 30+ year old amps that have been recapped, but still use the original tubes, might have some disagreement. My saying about audiophiles and double-blind testing may apply to this thread....

 

 

I'm with you on that one. I have 25 year old tubes in my Sunn Solarus and when our guitar player plugged into it before rehearsal one day he exclaimed,

"God, listen to that tone, will you ?" They are Mullards EL34's that I stuck in without any re-bias or anything. Don't know if they were "matched" or not.

I didn't even know about such issues back then. That amp is a tone monster.

Fourty years old and a couple of caps. replaced is the only repair it's ever had.

[In Absentia]

 

Tomato, tomAHto... That's the perennial problem with such discussions: subjectivity. What shade of blue IS the sky, really?

 

 

Sky Blue

 

Because regardless of what shade of blue the sky is on a particular day, it is always sky blue.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I sure do. It sure does. No. For more of what I believe, see the posts I've written and those of misterhinkydink, guttermouth, bnyswonger, Craigv and James Hart above. Also see my post in the thread re: impeachment. :poke:

 

 

Thank you.

 

I never said the 30+ year old tubes sounded like new ones. I never said they sounded as good. But I also never said they sound worse. They might sound different, but you'll have to subject it to a double-blind test before I'll concede that point.

 

There's a metric ton of bull{censored} posted about power tubes and their nuances. They were never intended to have influence over the tone of an amplifier, and in fact engineers worked long and hard on the tubes and the circuitry around them to create amplifiers with clean sound and accurate fidelity. They had succeeded in this quite well long before the amps we know and love were sold.

 

So to the OP: no, I would not go out and buy power tubes expecting vast improvements. If you think you hear them, great, have at it. But then why are you asking for advice on which ones to buy from strangers on an internet forum? One man's grit is another's mush, and all that...

[In Absentia]

 

Thank you. I never said the 30+ year old tubes sounded like new ones. I never said they sounded as good. But I also never said they sound worse. They might sound different, but you'll have to subject it to a double-blind test before I'll concede that point. There's a metric ton of bull{censored} posted about power tubes and their nuances. They were never intended to have influence over the tone of an amplifier, and in fact engineers worked long and hard on the tubes and the circuitry around them to create amplifiers with clean sound and accurate fidelity. They had succeeded in this quite well long before the amps we know and love were sold. So to the OP: no, I would not go out and buy power tubes expecting vast improvements. If you think you hear them, great, have at it. But then why are you asking for advice on which ones to buy from strangers on an internet forum? One man's grit is another's mush, and all that...

 

 

I never said that old tubes don't sound as good, and I believe in many cases that old tubes are preferential. What I said was that used tubes sound different. If the OP has a 40 year old head that was tucked away in a closet somewhere, I'd say count your lucky stars that you got those tubes, because there is a good chance that they sound pretty damned good. However, if those were the original tubes and they had been put to use a lot, I'd say dump 'em and yes, expect a better sound.

[Grumpy_Polecat]

 

Thank you. I never said the 30+ year old tubes sounded like new ones. I never said they sounded as good. But I also never said they sound worse. They might sound different, but you'll have to subject it to a double-blind test before I'll concede that point. There's a metric ton of bull{censored} posted about power tubes and their nuances. They were never intended to have influence over the tone of an amplifier, and in fact engineers worked long and hard on the tubes and the circuitry around them to create amplifiers with clean sound and accurate fidelity. They had succeeded in this quite well long before the amps we know and love were sold. So to the OP: no, I would not go out and buy power tubes expecting vast improvements. If you think you hear them, great, have at it. But then why are you asking for advice on which ones to buy from strangers on an internet forum? One man's grit is another's mush, and all that...

 

 

Sometimes I like grits, other times mush.

 

 

Depends on where I am...

[Kindness]

if those were the original tubes and they had been put to use a lot, I'd say dump 'em and yes, expect a better sound.

 

[Jugghaid]

If you want to change your tone, change your preamp tubes. They have WAY more effect on the tone of the amp than power tubes.

 

 

Aside from that, I used Sovtek KT88 WE power tubes in my Trace tube amps and they worked wonderfully.

 

Make sure your amp is biased properly and you should be able to run them for years.

[In Absentia]

 

Care to explain? Don't just argue your point with emoticons and one-liners.

[Crescent Seven]

 

Care to explain? Don't just argue your point with emoticons and one-liners.

 

 

He, and a few others, explained this in detail throughout this thread.

C7

[In Absentia]

 

Where?

 

All I see here are a few condescending comments, one-liners, and emoticons. I see no explanation why anyone thinks that the tubes being changed will not have a positive effect on sound. Been a lot of this on the board lately. People will argue and condescend rather than have a civilized conversation. If you don't believe something to be true, maybe tell someone why you disagree, rather than leave some little comment for all your buddies on the board to get a kick out of. It is a waste of time.

[Grumpy_Polecat]

 

If you want to change your tone, change your preamp tubes. They have WAY more effect on the tone of the amp than power tubes. Aside from that, I used Sovtek KT88 WE power tubes in my Trace tube amps and they worked wonderfully. Make sure your amp is biased properly and you should be able to run them for years.

 

 

 

Again, you win the correctness prize, Juggz.

 

THis brings to mind an important point, but one which despite frequent philosophic waxings in this forum and elsewhere still remains largely unknown. That is the subject of BIAS.

 

Picture if you will, the lowly power tube. It's sultry sheen and radient glow are decieving --they create an alllure that captifates the mind and imagination of artists yet are seen sterilely by engineers in white coats, brandishing soldering irons. Up ahead, around the binding post is a turn, and around it lies the Bias Zone... [/Rod Serling]

 

The mainthing that is unkown about tubes --In power applications in particular-- is that BIAS is what predicates their function. The venerable RCA 6L6 for example (possibly the most utilized tube in history) is known for

being a very stable 25wRMS audio amp power tube yet it is capable of performing many other functions. Getting it to perform those other functions is determined by its bias. -52v at the grid makes it work as an audio tube, but it's not a simple 'must be -52v' equation. It even depends on what type of audio amp architecture one is building. Class A audio has a differnt bias than Class AB, AB1 or Class B (though you're not likely to see Cl-B in an instrument amp because it's very costly to build.)

 

What is really important is what amount of current a tube is drawing in the process of doing its job, and the voltage will vary while getting the current right for that task. The point here is that there is a RANGE over which tubes will function well rather than some magic, absolute number, and above all there's what sounds good and what does not.

 

Because the number of amp mechanics is roughly equal to the number of transmission shops of similar calibre in any given community, finding those with competence can be somtimes difficult. It is too easy to just sell tubes to a guy who doesn't know better, when you yourself know no better.

 

I have an old Philco tube tester --one of the best ever made-- and I have made amps sing with tubes that 'on paper' shouldn't work at all. Of course, they don't last too long that way because after 50,000 hours or so ANYTHING is a bit tired, but the fact remains that I can tell what is really the amp's issue(s) after ruling the tubes out as cause.

 

But as before, it is very subjective. I know full well that fidelity is the design issue in the lab though --things like compression and distortion are more part of the amps design than the tubes themselves. So, we test them and if they are within tolerance, we use them. (Those of us who know a thing or two anyway...) Others sell tubes as a snake-oil cure-all.

 

I could go on and on.

 

I have before and I probably will again, but that's all for now.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I never said that old tubes don't sound as good, and I believe in many cases that old tubes are preferential. ... However, if those were the original tubes and they had been put to use a lot, I'd say dump 'em and yes, expect a better sound.

 

 

I'm not quite sure what you're saying. However, the point is moot. As I've already written, I don't believe the hype that new power tubes, or different power tubes, make any significant difference. If you or anyone else believe the differences you think you hear are significant, then do what makes you happy.

 

Seriously, I've had enough of arguing about trivial {censored}.

[Kindness]

 

I see no explanation why anyone thinks that the tubes being changed will not have a positive effect on sound.

 

 

What you are hearing when swapping power tubes is more likely a bias effect than a tube effect. If you hold all other variables constant when swapping power tubes you might have different results.

 

The reality is that the tubes are not "wearing out" in that short of a period of time.

[In Absentia]

 

I'm not quite sure what you're saying. However, the point is moot. As I've already written, I don't believe the hype that new power tubes, or different power tubes, make any significant difference. If you or anyone else believe the differences you think you hear are significant, then do what makes you happy. Seriously, I've had enough of arguing about trivial {censored}.

 

 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. All I was saying is that I believe that spower tubes. And I'm entitled to that opinion, without derision. But the derision wasn't coming from you, and therefore, my comment about that was not directed at you.

[In Absentia]

 

What you are hearing when swapping power tubes is more likely a bias effect than a tube effect. If you hold all other variables constant when swapping power tubes you might have different results. The reality is that the tubes are not "wearing out" in that short of a period of time.

 

 

Quite possibly, this is the case. The unfortunate thing is that this would be hard to test for because of differences from tube to tube, even if they are the same brand. Would make for an interesting experiment.

[In Absentia]

Double post