what does "crafted in USA" mean?

[JeffBass]

The crapted in America bass?

[T. Alan Smith]

Jeez...I just wanted to know if he's getting the bass.

 

Bass?

 

 

[Craig Vecchione]

 

I don't know. All I know is that no one has shown that outsourcing results in a net loss of jobs. That's your claim, no? Your suggestion? But in theory, if you buy the lowest-priced goods, you have more dollars to spend elsewhere. That creates more jobs to replace the outsourcing loss. I agree with you about real wages. But again, are you saying that outsourcing is to blame for that? If so, how? How about global competition? We're not the only economic player on the block anymore. Yet we want to maintain the same standard of living. There are kids in China and India who live in abject poverty and work their asses off to have what we have. They now have access to information they never had before. We're not entitled to maintain a higher standard of living unless we work harder and smarter than the competition. I don't see how buying exports, or the government, is to blame here.

 

 

The argument falls when you understand that the cheap goods that supposedly give you more spending money are taking your money overseas. They are not profiting a US company that can reinvest to grow more jobs...they are profiting a Chinese company to reinvest in *their* economy. SO you buy two $2 MIC items instead of one $4 MIA item. You're still moving $4 overseas. Nobody in the US benefits as much as the manufacturer in China.

 

For some reason people think that by stating "it's a global economy", that somehow there's an implication that this is good for the US. It's good if the global economy means we can sell our goods for profit overseas. But more and more this is not the case. Other countries add huge taxes (look at how much an SVT costs in Australia...) to imported goods, specifically to reduce demand for them. We don't do this, and we suffer as a result. It's impossible for a US company to be competitive, and it's not because we supposedly make too much. Compared with the wages in India and China, yes, but what about the markets in Europe, and other countries that aren't just stepping out of the 3rd world? We can't sell to them competitively because the playing field is uneven.

 

You keep asking for some economist's claim that outsourcing is definitely causing reduced jobs. I'm not looking for that. I suggest that it has, because I've witnessed it over the years in my field. I'm not claiming it's the root cause, or the only cause, for our economic problems. I do firmly believe it's one of the causes among the many mentioned in this thread. There's no benefit to taking work away from this country. "Manufacturing bad; service good" seems to be almost an unspoken belief. But this country sure seemed to be doing a LOT better when we made things, lots of them, and sold them to the rest of the world. China has replaced us, and look at their economy vs ours, then let me know if you think things might benefit from a change back to some "old" ways.

[toolbar]

 

You say corporate greed, I say corporate survival. Capital always flows to where it can be used most efficiently . And we're in a global economy now.

 

 

Or where the resources can be more easily exploited.

[T. Alan Smith]

Working in the trucking division of a 3rd party logistics corporation, I sort of get a birds eye view of this. I don't really have much luck with service oriented businesses. They don't exactly have a need for me to handle raw materials, nor to they tend to produce finished product for me to ship.

[hawkhuff]

 

I know this question was put to Funkee, but since I agree with his sentiment, and since this is an open forum, I'll answer. No. If more goods were made here, those goods would be more expensive, since our wages are much higher (due to our higher standard of living). So we'd have to pay for that, as we do now whenever we choose to buy "Made in USA." That leaves less dollars in our pockets to spend on other goods, which means less jobs. Can you demonstrate that outsourcing has resulted in a net loss of American jobs? If you can, please do, because the brightest economists can't.

 

 

+1

 

At one time it meant better but not anymore.

 

Just compare the MIA, MIJ and MIM Fenders (keeping with the bass stuff). I have, and I have a MIM P bass. I love it. If I had a bit more cash at the time, I would have bought the MIJ P bass.

[hawkhuff]

 

Yeah, I suppose it's tough developing an asset base to ensure you can give your top chairs multi million dollar bonuses atop their salaries, atop their...

 

 

Like anyone else who is on top of their game? All one has to do is look at the bucks some of the big music acts take in or actors or athletes. How are they any different?

 

Shouldn't we hate them all if we wish to remain consistent about some that are making 'too much' money?

 

And what should we do about those who have run the Fannies and Freddies into the ground? They too received multimillion dollar severance packages but appear they may avoid prosecution while we, the taxpayers, foot the entire bill when the government takes over the mortgage industry. Why do some of us apply the double standard?

 

I believe those who are on top their game should be paid what the market allows but this doesn't apply to government entities. Why not? Because WE pay it and they go about their merry ways.

[J-chot]

WILL YOU {censored}ING OLD PEOPLE SHUT YOUR PIEHOLE ABOUT THE BULL{censored} i HAVE TO ENDURE ON A DAILY BASIS FROM YOU PEOPLE? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT QUALITY OF BASSES, NOT POLITICS.

[hawkhuff]

Suck it up, cupcake. :poke:

[T. Alan Smith]

WILL YOU FUCKING OLD PEOPLE SHUT YOUR PIEHOLE ABOUT THE BULLSHIT i HAVE TO ENDURE ON A DAILY BASIS FROM YOU PEOPLE? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT QUALITY OF BASSES, NOT POLITICS.

 

Yeah...that's what TalkBass is all about. As you can see, the atmosphere is different. Experience here will teach you that.

Thanks for screaming profanities my way.

[Kindness]

 

For some reason people think that by stating "it's a global economy", that somehow there's an implication that this is good for the US.

 

 

I don't. I mean there is no good long term reason to artificially protect a local economy in a global system.

[wades_keys]

I don't. I mean there is no good long term reason to artificially protect a local economy in a global system.

Why not, it's working pretty well for the EU?

[T. Alan Smith]

Why not, it's working pretty well for the EU?

 

Touche.

[JeffBass]

WILL YOU FUCKING OLD PEOPLE SHUT YOUR PIEHOLE ABOUT THE BULLSHIT i HAVE TO ENDURE ON A DAILY BASIS FROM YOU PEOPLE? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT QUALITY OF BASSES, NOT POLITICS.

 

He typed in all caps, he must really be pissed.

[wades_keys]

 

Can you demonstrate that outsourcing has resulted in a net loss of American jobs? If you can, please do, because the brightest economists can't.

 

That's a loaded question - you're asking someone to ascribe a single root cause to a very complex matrix.

 

Of course no economist would do that.

[wades_keys]

 

We should be demanding a higher standard of living, considering it's gone backwards for quite a few years. Indeed our now service-based economy is being shipped offshore to whatever extent it can. But don't *just* blame the government. Blame yourself every time you buy something with the Made in China sticker on the bottom. Blame the corporations that have embraced profit over loyalty to the people who got them where they were in the first place.

 

Agreed - but I can't blame myself; I have no choice in the matter; the American made goods just don't exist for me to buy, in many cases.

[Kindness]

 

Agreed - but I can't blame myself; I have no choice in the matter; the American made goods just don't exist for me to buy, in many cases.

 

 

This is interesting. What can't you buy from local sources?

[wades_keys]

 

This is interesting. What can't you buy from local sources?

 

Toys and electronics.

 

Not sure why that is interesting; it's pretty well known that the American Manufacturing sector is all but non-existent anymore.

[Kindness]

 

Toys and electronics. Not sure why that is interesting; it's pretty well known that the American Manufacturing sector is all but non-existent anymore.

 

 

I can't think of anything I need that doesn't exist locally. You just aren't putting your money where your mouth is. My contention is there is no reason you should.

[wades_keys]

I can't think of anything I need that doesn't exist locally. You just aren't putting your money where your mouth is. My contention is there is no reason you should.

I buy GE - they are produced right here in town; assembled by a bare-bones workforce at appliance park from foreign components.

 

It's not just Mexico and China - they are also sourcing compressors from Singapore.

 

I have also worked with a GE affiliate to implement their FTZ (Foreign Trade Zone) reporting system; believe me when I say that these Foreign Trade agreements are a huge reason why companies are choosing foreign goods.

 

Thousands of people used to work at Appliance Park; building 5 was once a manufacturing facility and it is now an overflow FTZ warehouse, stocked to the gills with foreign components.

 

I would love to take any of you on a tour of that facility, so you can see with your own eyes the decay of the American Dream.

 

I'd love to have you speak with the family members of those that have given years of their lives to that company, only to be displaced by cheap-ass foreign goods.

 

I'll also never forget the day that I turned off our Maytag EDI feed for good, due to the plant closure.

 

Thousands of American people lost their jobs in that deal....

 

Fuck outsourcing and Fuck Foreign Trade Agreements - It's time for a little good old protectionism and a return to stiff import tairiff's. It's working pretty well for the EU.

 

Fuck the "global economy" - it's MY economy that I'm concerned with, rightly so.

[Teletypist]

"Made in USA" means the product must be 100% of US material and must be manufactured in the US. "Negligible" amounts of foreign material are permitted. http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/madeusa.shtm "Crafted in USA" don't mean diddly.

 

Didn't read your own link?"

 

 

Until 1997 "Made in USA" meant the product must be "all or virtually all" manufactured in the US. Didn't have anything to do with "materials".

 

The interpretation of "virtually all" (it was an intended "loophole"), under direction of Congress, was based on the value of services.

 

As an example, a guitar manufacturer set up a Mexican production facility. It made complete guitars and labeled those as "Made In Mexico". It also made sub-assemblies. I.E. complete necks, bodies, loaded PGs.

 

These sub-assemblies could be shipped 50 miles across the border to an "American" production facility, where these were assembled into complete guitars, set up, and packaged (Mostly by yet more Mexican or Mexican descent workers ).

 

Those guitars could be labeled as "Made In America" under the following logic:

The Mexican portion of production cost, including 40 hours of labor, was $90. The American portion, including 2 hours of labor, was $140 (you know: higher labor, tax, utility costs). That was more then 67% of the total, close enough to "virtually all" for Congress's liking.

 

But getting back to Peavey's:

 

Crafted or Made in the USA meant the same thing: They were entirely made in the USA, with the following exception: They were not second-sourcing components supplied by other vendors (some tuners & bridges come to mind).

[georgestrings]

 

WILL YOU {censored}ING OLD PEOPLE SHUT YOUR PIEHOLE ABOUT THE BULL{censored} i HAVE TO ENDURE ON A DAILY BASIS FROM YOU PEOPLE? WE'RE TALKING ABOUT QUALITY OF BASSES, NOT POLITICS.

 

 

 

Simmah down, noob... You don't have to "endure" anything - you can always go to talkbass....

 

 

 

- georgestrings

[Craig Vecchione]

Didn't read your own link?" Until 1997 "Made in USA" meant the product must be "all or virtually all" manufactured in the US. Didn't have anything to do with "materials". The interpretation of "virtually all" (it was an intended "loophole"), under direction of Congress, was based on the value of services. As an example, a guitar manufacturer set up a Mexican production facility. It made complete guitars and labeled those as "Made In Mexico". It also made sub-assemblies. I.E. complete necks, bodies, loaded PGs. These sub-assemblies could be shipped 50 miles across the border to an "American" production facility, where these were assembled into complete guitars, set up, and packaged (Mostly by yet more Mexican or Mexican descent workers ). Those guitars could be labeled as "Made In America" under the following logic: The Mexican portion of production cost, including 40 hours of labor, was $90. The American portion, including 2 hours of labor, was $140 (you know: higher labor, tax, utility costs). That was more then 67% of the total, close enough to "virtually all" for Congress's liking. But getting back to Peavey's: Crafted or Made in the USA meant the same thing: They were entirely made in the USA, with the following exception: They were not second-sourcing components supplied by other vendors (some tuners & bridges come to mind).

 

WTF are you talking about?

 

From the link, first paragraph:

 

After a comprehensive review of Made in USA and other U.S. origin claims in product advertising and labeling, the Commission announced in December 1997 that it would retain the "all or virtually all" standard. The Commission also issued an Enforcement Policy Statement on U.S. Origin Claims to provide guidance to marketers who want to make an unqualified Made in USA claim under the "all or virtually all" standard and those who want to make a qualified Made in USA claim.

 

And if you read the explanations, material origin is a factor.

 

Again, from the link:

 

Example: The steel used to make a single component of a complex product (for example, the steel used in the case of a computer

[Thunderbroom]

 

I would love to take any of you on a tour of that facility, so you can see with your own eyes the decay of the American Dream.

 

 

My American Dream never involved working in a manufacturing plant making appliances. Do people really aspire to assemble washing machines all day long?

[Craig Vecchione]

 

My American Dream never involved working in a manufacturing plant making appliances. Do people really aspire to assemble washing machines all day long?

 

 

People who have no job may be quite happy to get one building washing machines. People stocking shelves in Wal*Mart for $7/hr and no benefits might jump at the opportunity to assemble cylinder heads at a GM plant for $25/hr plus benefits and a retirement plan.

 

Additionally, the existance of manufacturing doesn't mean the only jobs created are manufacturing. Those washing machine assemblers eat lunch, so the deli guy gets to stay in business. The truckers and railroad workers who move the raw aluminum and steel to that GM plant keep their jobs. The construction worker builds those two plants, and the electric utility sells power to keep the lights on in all of these places.

 

None of which happens, or happens at a greatly reduces rate, when those jobs go away.